The tone of this week’s episode is a bit more serious than our typical topics. Nicole, Carrie, and Danie talk about #MeToo and how the media handled some high profile cases like the Cosby Case, Weinstein Case, and Amy Fisher (which Danie and Nicole were too young to pay attention to when the “Long Island Lolita” first hit the media.) This episode comes with a content warning, if sexual assault is a trigger for you - maybe skip this one and replay one of our older episodes!)
Listen to the full episode:
Show Notes and Resources:
We would love to hear what your reaction was to these cases. Shoot us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org or connect with us on social media at:
Become a Women AF Podcast Patreon supporter for exclusive behind the scenes material, to have an opportunity, submit questions for a listener’s FAQ, vote on topic ideas, and get a bunch of great freebies - like Merch! (Who doesn’t love merch): www.patreon.com/womenafpodcast.
Women AF is produced by Mortar Box Media and Engineered by Adam Rostad.
Intro and Outro Music is SQZ by Shane Ivers. Check him out at silvermansound.com
If you or somebody you know is being sexually assaulted the National Sexual Assault hotline is 1-800-656-Hope (1-800-656-4673) or you can visit rainn.org.
Transcript for Episode 10: #MeToo and the Media:
Please note: this transcript is for anyone who needs to or would prefer to use a transcript than listen to the episode. We do our best but please excuse errors in the transcript.
Women AF 0:00
This is a mortar box media podcast for more podcasts and to learn how we can help you create your own visit mortarboxmedia.com.
Welcome to Women AF the podcast hosted by three friends who have bonded over entrepreneurial dreams, potty training gone wrong, and the dreams of dismantling the patriarchy. Oh, and the murder podcast. I'm your host, Nicole. I got with me, Danie and Carrie. Hey, that was fun. I like that intro. So, as a little beginning, hi, how are you guys?
Yeah, I'm glad you guys are good.
How are you?
Oh, so good. I'm working on this hosting thing I'm getting there.
What are you hosting?
So, I'm trying to get there.
I think you're doing great.
Okay. This is the earliest I've ever interupted.
A record - a minute, seven seconds.
But I, I just want to say you say that you're working on this. That was great. That was incredible. But yeah, sure, yeah, that seemed like a planned bit. Oh, what do you hosting? This podcast!
We're not that good.
I mean, we are but in a different way. Yeah. So, first, before we talk about how we're doing, we wanted to talk about how our Patreon of the month whatever we are. Obviously, we're good at this. Oh, yeah. So we have a new Patreon and it's been really exciting because it's growing. And I'm working on a custom designed t shirt, just for those individuals. Yeah. I'm really excited.
So who is our Patreon of the week?
It's my sister. I love it. Thanks, Lindsay. Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you. We're working on a shirt for you. And by we I mean, Nicole!
I'm getting their approval on it. They're pretty, pretty good at approval.
We're really like mean about it. Yeah, we trashed her first couple design.
Hardcore. Oh, thanks to Lindsay and again, thanks to Danie's mom. Yeah. And to keep up Patreon Patreon OF THE WEEK going, we're going to need people to step in here.
Yeah, really. So just you can join Patreon for as little as $1. But to get this exclusive shirt, you only need to be at the $5 a month tier, which is like nothing. Yeah. And you get a T shirt and you get a T shirt. You know from us. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And if you go up to the $10 a month Tear, you get a whole welcome basket as well as you get to vote on future episode topics and you get exclusive behind the scenes QA that will do just for you. Yeah, ask us questions and we tell you thing.s
So get over to Patreon. Come on. Let's do this
If you go make a $20 tier, you give them all that Whoa. And then I'll do three podcasting consults. That doesn't mean recording. But I will, I will say, hey, let's let's talk about it. And we can figure out how your what kind of podcasts you want. I'll walk them through it a lot like I have with you guys. I mean, you guys can you know, give me some praise right now and tell people they should do that. But I mean, no, no, no, no pressure. But yeah, you guys are great. I love the show. And like I can't afford to support you on Patreon. But I can at least like offer that to your Patreon.
There's another way you can support us. If you can't do Patreon you can.
How's that Nicole?
Oh, well, let me tell you, Adam, you can subscribe on Apple on Spotify on anywhere you get your podcasts, you can subscribe, you can like our you could share, you can like our Facebook page. Write a review
a good one, please. That'd be great. Oh, we're getting so good at this.
So I just want to say I'm gonna try really hard to not interrupt for the rest of the. But so what I want to say to your listeners is, you know, a couple episodes ago, I talked about how these things have value, the show has value and so you should be a patron member on Patreon for patreon.com/WomenAFpodcast, but maybe your listeners don't know what ratings and reviews do on a podcast app, particularly the one that's really important for podcasters is Apple podcast app or iTunes. A rating helps people find your show and the way that it does that is a higher rating of if you have a bunch of five star ratings on your show as people are searching for certain things in the search function on Apple podcasts app, so let's say they were searching for a show that is called Women are funny, right? So there's they type women and the higher rate of your show is it as it starts to suggest but oh, maybe this is the show your your higher in that list of suggestions so they could see Women AF and go Hey, that sounds like a because it's Women AF is probably one of the catchiest podcast names I've ever been involved in. So as
Unknown Speaker 5:45
Good job, Danie!
So, people see it in that list as they're searching for the podcast they thought they wanted to listen to they'll see your podcast name and say, Hey, I should check this one out for sure. A rating what that's going to do for you guys That's good, you know, fans, this is your chance to like, influence the show. But that rating is super important. That's why you want people to rate it. And then the other obvious thing that they can do is share the episode share link to an episode on Facebook and stuff. So I'm sorry, I'm not going to take over.
And that's an example of how Adam might give you some consulting.
I like it. He really is good at this. He's helped us out. Yes. Anybody out there wanting to start a podcast? Come on. Yeah, let's do it way to do it. Do it
That's Nicole's favorite meme to do it.
I love that. I send it to you guys all the time. All right, well, enough about that. Let's talk about us. Hi. Hi. How are you guys? Carrie?
I'm good. Good.
Yeah, tell me a story. What's been happening.
I got to do a fun out of the blue kind of Super out of the blue but wasn't expecting to see my very best friend in the world last week. And she lives in Germany. And usually it's like, once twice a year I see her and boom, she called me up. She called me we don't do that. She messaged me. I got a cheap fare. I'm going to be around. Let's have lunch. As I'm going through town. I was like, Great, so I got to see my best friend. And that's my favorite thing. That's awesome. Yeah.
Danie, what about you?
Well, like every week? I have a wild story. So um, last Wednesday, my battery light came out of my car. And I was like, Well, that doesn't seem like a good thing. And we had just replaced our alternator in December. So I was like, What could it be? So I took it to farm and fleet on my way to urgent care, which is another part of the story - it was a day. So at farm and fleet, they were like your battery's fine. The voltage seems a little low. We don't know why. It seems good. Just charge it a little bit, you'll be fine. And I was like, that seems like good news. So I went then to urgent care and everything's fine. I we just found out my thyroid medication is too high, which can do funky things. But anyway, that is a whole nother story. Anyway, so then, on Friday, I was driving home from work and we hadn't charged it yet, because we were going to borrow my dad's charger over the weekend, and then put it on overnight. And as I'm almost to the daycare, all of my dash lights went on. Like, more I didn't even know I have this many lights on my dash and it's like, and then, you know, it's kind of flashing a little bit, which seems bad right now. seems bad. And I'm calling Daniel and I'm like, Okay, well, I'm just gonna get the kids and I just have to get home. I'll take the back roads. It's only 10 minutes I just got to go home and look at the car and figure out what's going on. Okay, so and then I was like maybe if I turn it off and on again, it'll be better because that's how cars work. Anyway, I turned it off went in and got the kids put them in the car seat and they're crying because you known that's what they do, yeah, and then the car won't start. And so then I'm like, Whoa, okay, the on and off again thing didn't work. So then I went and got the daycare people to come give me a jump and they did and then so they jumped it and we're driving and I swear, not five minutes down the road. And I'm on the phone with Daniel and I'm like, all the lights are back on. It's flashing at me. And now the speedometer is not working at all. I can't tell how fast I'm going. Oh, and now the accelerator isn't working. I was pressing like the pedal to the floor and I was not going faster. And then power steering goes out and my break goes out as I'm driving. around a corner. And so it's in the car with my kids in the car and it's snowing. And so I'm like, thankfully the accelerator and been going out. So I've been gradually decelerating and it was a side road still a busy road, but not like the highway. So in order to not go in the ditch it as best as I could, with no power steering guided onto the side of the road and then put it in park really fast. And then the whole car just died. So then I was like, okay, we're at a corner, there's no sidewalk, there's nowhere for me to go. So we're just going to hang out here and so I called Daniel was like, okay, you know, cars dead. We're just gonna sit here. Can you come give me a jump? He's like, okay, so he was 30 minutes away. So he comes, gives me a jump. We literally let it charge for like 20 minutes and we're like, we just have to get home or at the very least, we have to get away from where we're at right now because it was not a great spot to have the car. So we drive it about a minute down the road. The lights come back on, the speedometer goes off. I quick pull to the side because I know what's happening next. And then the whole car dies, we jump it again. wait another 20 minutes. We go another two minutes down the road. And at this point I'm like, Okay, this is how it works, right? All the lights go on, the speedometer goes off and then I know shortly after that the whole car is just gonna die. So we ended up getting it like closer to the rich neighborhood that's like not where we live. But like, we felt like it'd be okay if we kind of parked it there. Yeah. So we did and then we ended up leaving it overnight. And at this point, I had left work at four at this point its 730. And I'm like, we just have to go home. My potty trained three year old is not going to be able to hold it any longer. We're going to go home we're gonna leave the car. So then we left the car, took the battery charger and then I went to go visit my mom at the hospital. Who had been admitted that day because she had cellulitis and wasn't responding to antibiotics so they wanted to put her on antibiotics. So I went to visit her got the charger. And then we had to go get diapers actually right away because we realized we had zero diapers in the house or in the diaper bag or anywhere. So then I got home and we charged it overnight. The next day my dad came and they got the car because they'd been charging battery all night, and it was a bad what turned out being we had the alternator we'd replace it with was a bad alternator. So we had to replace the alternator again, but at least they refunded us so that was my wild weekend.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I hope everyone's enjoyed the latest installment of Danie's weekly shit show.
Oh gosh. Yeah, well
Oh, you have anything to say.
I Not really. I mean, my kid started lying to my face, which is so great. Like to the point where she has a straight face and I'm like, maybe she is telling the truth. And then I'm like, okay, I believe you. And then she turns and goes, she like puts her, puts her mouth covers her mouth and goes "hehehe", like a creepy little kid. I'm like, She's good at it. She's real good at it. She's three and a half. I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do. And she's going to we just did for case we're going to do 4k screening. Like this. Oh, nuts. I can't handle this. Anyway. So that's been what I've been doing. Wow. I know.
Well, okay, so school stresses me out. The idea of sending the kids to school
right and a bus. Oh, good.
No, it's more about how do we figure out like the timing, right, because yeah, both were pretty far away. Yeah.
You know, yep. 50 minutes.
Right? Yep. So it's like, why does school end at three? Yeah, I don't understand that.
Yeah. That's, you'll figure it out though. Everyone does!
Yeah. Alright. Well, I think that's, that's all we got for now. Let's take a quick break and then we'll jump right into our topic.
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And we're back. Hey guys. So we're going to jump right into our topic but we wanted to prior we wanted to talk about how this is a little bit more of a serious topic. This is the first time we've kind of done a little bit serious topics we wanted to give a trigger warning of this will have like sexual assault will have different cases we're going to talk about all of us are true crime fanatics, so we and we actually have notes this time. Yeah, it's gonna be intense. Alright, so our topic for today is how the media and news reporting affects cases and allegations to sexual predators. Oh, there we go. Intense one. All right, let's go. All right. So what spurred this, let's talk about that. So what spurred This is in the top, we talked about how we're all fans of murder podcasts. And so one that I've been listening to is chasing Cosby chasing Cosby.
Not, that that's a murder podcast.
You're right. It's True Crime. Yeah. Gosh, I already screwed that up. Okay. So, um, and what it's about is the case against Bill Cosby, and how it took so long for it to come into justice to happen and how there's so many different allegations and I want to talk about how how the media affected that. Like, for instance, in the beginning, there was okay, so I'm just going to jump right into it. And Danie, you said you listen this podcast, right.
I did. I have binged, everything that was available already. And you just told me about this last week.
Yes. Yes. And Carrie. Have you listened to it?
No. Okay. No.
Well, you guys had it covered. I listened to Some other stuff.
So, yes. So basically, what I wanted to talk about was, I think the first accusations happen in 2005. Yes. And then yeah, but then the thing is, what frustrated me was the newspapers started releasing the the name and the account prior and her picture, her knowledge stand
Andrea Constand is the person you're talking about. Yeah. For people who don't know what that was, She was the first. The first victim that came forward legally like that pressed charges.
Yeah. And that was crazy. Yeah.
So they so just to reiterate what Nicole was saying. So when Andrea constand came forward, the media released her picture and name without her permission. Yep. As well as like, what she was pressing charges against or what she was coming forward with. Yeah. And so, let's go back to so you heard that and that frustrated you? And let's go from there. What that made you.
Yeah. So I talked to you guys, and I started thinking about the whole case in general and how, when I heard about this case, my interpretation was like, I didn't want to hear it. Because there were so much about it.
Like do you heard it on the podcast or
no, when I heard it from the Media. Yeah, when I heard it from the media and how they started, like really revving up in talking about all these different cases talking about like, and a lot of other celebrities were coming forward to and talking about it. So it really was my frustration and an was that the media just took it and went to town with it, but in a negative way. Like they took it and they completely just wanted to get people's attention rather than focusing on how this situation was happening. And no one really cared and
like a discrediting the accusers, type of way?
Yeah, and saying like, he's America's Dad, this is totally fine. And then other celebrities were coming on and saying like, this is this can't happen. Like he was an amazing guy, all this kind of stuff. And it's just it just frustrates me how in these sorts of cases it blows up because number one, the media is trying to gain attention. Get their money's worth. But then it's just it's hurting the people that are coming forward because then it scares other people. Like it scared a lot of the other accusations from coming forward because they didn't want their name in the paper. They didn't want all this negative opinions towards it. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Carrie was giving me a look like she wanted me to respond, I think. Yes. I, I remember when the Cosby case First, well, not first broke, but broken, like 2016 2017. Yeah. And again, I also did not know that the first person that Andrea Constand had come forward in 2005. Yeah, I had no idea. Yeah. And, you know, I agree. I think that a lot of like the main news outlets seem to be which isn't unusual for this type of a case. Right? They present it in a way that's almost invalidating the accusers. Yeah, right away. Yeah. Right. They position it like, Oh, these women are after money, or their 15 minutes of fame, you know, or whatever.
Yeah. discrediting them right away.
I'm going to say, I feel like that is the most laughable thing. Because coming forward with sexual assault accusations, there's nothing that feels good about that. Yeah. Like, that's not a fame that anybody really wants.
Yeah. No, I mean, because look how they're treated. They're dragged, they get completely dragged.
Yeah. Well, and even that you're dragged, you're shamed for it. It's your fault. For some reason, you know, it's like, and then if if somebody does get any type of monetary compensation, it's like, they're immediately invalidated for that too. So it's like, and in some cases, some of the Cosby accusers were saying like they lost their career after they came forward or after the assault happened or the rape or whatever the case was. Because they, you know, he was working with modeling agencies. So like, once he decided I'm done with you, like, now the modeling agency doesn't want to represent you anymore. Hmm. Or, like there's just in there was two stories that the two women that shared their stories where they said that you know, after that they had that happened to them, they felt like they lost themselves. Yeah. And they didn't want to pursue whatever the thing was that they were passionate about. Hmm. Because I think there's a lot that happens regarding assault. That's way beyond like the physical act of what happens?
Sure, yeah. And and a lot of that trauma, traumatization is because of its so public, or it becomes public.
And then everyone has to have an opinion, right?
And everyone has an opinion and it's embarrassing stuff. And it's, you know, uncomfortable stuff. And people are going to take that, especially now, social media is going to take that and run with it. And, you know, the victims read that stuff. They go out there and they read all that stuff. And they internalize that and a lot of ways and it just, it's a spiraling downward from, you know, starting in a bad place, and I listened to a podcast that has a lot of interesting similarities. Yeah, about the Larry Nassar situation.
What is that? I don't know that.
He was the sports medicine doctor and the gym Ms. Michigan State Yeah, that one Olympic. Yeah.Yeah. And it was the same kind of thing where allegations were coming out real early. And for whatever reason, like no, can't take this seriously. Nope. Not going to take that seriously can't be. Yeah, because this is like a great guy. This guy's a great guy. And it's a lot of parallels there. And I don't see how in all the stuff I listened to or read over the past couple weeks when we started talking about this. Any of the victims came out in the end saying, Yeah, I got what I wanted out of that, you know, that felt great. Yeah. It's not a triumphant thing.
No, you know, even it's just yeah, even after like, the the judgment came down on Cosby. I mean, people felt a little bit like justice was served, right, I'm sure. But it's not like the trauma is healed. Yeah, no, like, it's just like, because he was still so defiant afterwards. Right. And so it's like, you know, there's like a little it's like, Okay, well, at least I know he now can't do this to anybody else. Yeah. But that doesn't make what happened to me and the years that I've, you know, dealt with that trauma any better.
Yeah, right. Right. And I think, you know, I don't know numbers or anything, but in a lot of these cases, it doesn't even get that much justice. You know. I'm thinking of the book that I read by Chanel Miller, who was the victim of the Stanford... Yep. And, you know, he ended up what serving three months or something like that. Oh, yeah.
Because the judge said, you know, we don't want to ruin his swimming career.
Yeah. how's this gonna affect him? Yeah. Oh,
Brock Turner's dad in a statement even said something like, why should my son be punished for the rest of his life for 10 minutes?
20 minutes of action. Yeah. So in the end, you know, she felt like, was it worth it? You know, kind of for all that all everything she went through, getting dragged through the mud and everything like that, you know, it's not something people want to go out and do. This isn't something that's going to get people fame, money, good attention. It's just not that.
No, not at all. And I mean, it ultimately really comes down to the fact that women are not valued. Right. They're not valued in the media. They're not valued in the courts.
Yeah. Just think about how many women came forward and the Cosby case, actually 63 Yeah. And it was hundreds in Larry Nasser Yeah, yeah. The weight of this one man as compared to like, hundreds of women. Yeah. And it kept he kept winning out again. Yeah, all those voices right voice Yeah, winning.
And I mean, you think going back to the media, right? Like, you have to think of how much you know the patriarchy or like this. Putting men up on pedestals affects how the media outlets are reporting, right? Because if like, look at the like Charlie Rose, Matt Lauer, right, and they were major news stations. So why if they were already perpetrating these similar crimes, why are they going to report in a way that would also make them look bad?
Right, right. Yeah. Sorry. Okay, here we go.
I had a thought and I lost it.
So, and I also want to discern it, like the difference between reporting and opinion is huge. And I feel like that's not that's not what's commonly known. Like a lot of people what's actually reporting is, like, unbiased. They're hearing both sides. They're acknowledging
And you're talking about, like criminal like the actual criminal case.
Yes. Yeah. Yep. Rather than, like opinion of like, hey, this guy isn't cool, right. Okay, cool. Yeah, that's great. But is there an actual like, I don't know. It's just, I just get so annoyed at how many opinions are out there when in reality, it's not about opinion, like it's about if if someone has brought this case, and it has filed, you know, criminal charges, charges. Yeah. Thank you. Then you need to Understand that it's not about opinion, like, and it's also not about the bystandard as in like the the news or let's say me and social media who's hearing about this case, like it's not about me, it's not what about what I think it should be about what the judge thinks it should be about what actually is happening between the two sides. And that should be it. Yeah. I yeah.
And there's like a difference to like, if you look at the Kavinaugh on trial, right. Yeah. that a lot of people approached that as if it was a criminal case, as in depending on the results of the case. He would or would not be going to jail for example, or he would be like,
Remind me about Kavinaugh again?
Kavinaugh, was running for a judge position on the Supreme Court. That's right. And a woman came forward who said that, and I apologize, I'm blanking. Suddenly. I
Christine Blasey Ford.
Good job, Carrie!
Christine Blasey Ford came forward and said, You know, I'm not pressing criminal charges. But before we can, you know, vote this guy into the highest court in the nation, I want people to understand what happened, and what this guy's character is. So essentially, she was coming forward and his quote unquote, punishment would be to not get a job. Yeah. And there's a lot of jobs I have not gotten for, say something like not being as experienced. I would assume if somebody came forward with sexual assault allegations, as I'm applying for a job, most companies would say, I don't want to be associated with that person.
yeah. And so, but the way that the public opinion took it was like, well, we need facts. We need evidence. We need this. We need that. And this was not a criminal case.
And if Say your friend comes to you. There. That's not a criminal case. Right? Like you should not be responding and saying, well, I need facts and evidence, which is how a lot of people respond. Yeah, because we're conditioned to think this way. innocent until proven guilty. Mm hmm. But you know,
Well... for the guy. Right?
Yes. Yes, this is true. It is true,
because usually the response is, well, actually, here's a good example of a type of response. The Weinstein case that's happening right now. So Weinstein's lawyer is a woman, which I already am upset about, right? Because for a woman to be defending a predator. Again, you know, I just, I can't understand how, like, that's okay. Like, why why you would think that that's okay as a woman, or as a guy really I don't know understand how anybody could be defending him but that's besides the point. So what she came forward and said, essentially was that when somebody asked her what she would do if she's been sexually if she would get sexually assaulted or raped or whatever, and she said, Well, I would never put myself in that position.
Whoa, that's low. I mean, that's straight up, you know, rape myths right there. Like you did something to deserve it.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. But isn't that what the problem is, is because the way the media positions these cases is that the victim somehow did something to deserve it? Yep. That was what they were wearing. It was what they were drinking. Yeah. You just weren't clear about your consent. Yeah. You didn't yell No. loud enough. Like in some cases against Cosby. They were like, Well, why didn't you fight back as if that was like invalidated
Yeah. Yeah, they were. But they would they would go to their go to his house and get like acting lessons and stuff. Yeah. And so a lot of people were like, Whoa, why did you go to his house?
Weren't they drugged?
For the acting lesson?
Because he's America's dad. So you don't think that anything would happen?
Yeah. And it's somebody they trusted.
Yeah. And he lied. And he said a lot of what he gave these people were like muscle relaxers or like cold medicine or just things to help their head like,
well, then you have the power imbalance, right? Yeah. These are teenage girls, or young 20s. Yeah, people who are young in their careers they really trust this person this older, well, famous celebrity famous guy who's been talking to their parents, invites them over to come help them out. Right. So there's this huge power imbalance on top of it, which is usually the case right like in a lot of these times, we decide how a victim should have acted or how they should have acted afterwards or how When they should have reported it, or how they should have reported it, or how upset they should be. And if they don't follow these parameters, which are completely unfair and unrealistic, then they must be wrong, even if it happened. It's their fault. Yeah. After the Cosby thing came out, I even saw people post pictures on Facebook that said, Why would he rape these women? When he worked with these much more beautiful women? Why wouldn't he have raped them? Because they're more beautiful?
The logic is sound. Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, for so many reasons. Just think, think for a little bit.
And that's my thing, too. Like, why don't in a society where social media is so much a like you see something you react, you comment right away. Like, I just I hate that because in these cases, that's what happened. It is so easy. It is so easy.
It is for everyone. And it's the thing where the media, they just want the the biggest splashiest story. They're gonna like, twist it and spin it. And it's a fact that people, the first version of a story they hear is the one they believe. Yeah. So to come back at people and be like, No, no, like, stop and think they'll be like, nope, nope. This is how it's in my head. And this is how I'm going to think about it. Yeah. So
well, it's like the Amy Fisher case from you're wrong about Yeah.
I didn't I didn't listen to that one. Okay, so it was Tell me what happened there.
Well, we did realize and talking about a lot of these things that I'm the only one that remember some of these cases, because neither one of you knew Amy Fisher was right.
Right. Oh, yeah. Amy fishing around 92.
Was that what it was? Yeah. So Amy Fisher was what 16 and having an affair with a married man and ended up going to the their house and shooting the wife.
In the face?
Oh, so just to clarify, she was 16 and he was 36 let's just start there.
Yo, whoa, right. Whoa,
okay, all right. Oh, go ahead. Okay.
I mean she she grew up in obviously like not great conditions as you would probably assume. Yeah. But you're
when you're being groomed by this 30, Yes, whatever.
And through this guy that she was having the affair with, she ended up working in prostitution houses, like he he got her in there and like that was kind of what he did on the side for like side cash. Oh, gosh, like
he was essentially a pimp for an escort service.
Yeah. So she had a lot going on and she's just this kid who has no guidance at home and you know, just a one of those really messy situations that is very, very common, and people aren't going to make the best choices when they've grown up like that.
And he would subtly say things to her like, man, it'd be great if my wife was dead. Yeah, I just wish someone would shoot my wife.
And you would say, you know what, if you if you killed her, you wouldn't get in trouble because you're under age. He straight up told her, she wouldn't get in trouble. So she was like, ooh, I think I have to do this.
Yeah. But this isn't how the media presented this know,
how did they do it?
Well, do you remember when it came out? Carrie how it was portrayed in the news?
Yeah. I mean, crazy. Psycho, slutty bimbo. Lolita was the word Long Island Lolita
I have so many problems with that.
Like, she was already in jail when the newspapers came up with that nickname long island Lolita and she called her mom and she was like, Mom, what does Lolita mean? Like she didn't even know what it meant. She was just like this totally clueless. Obviously made Some bad decision I don't know where Sure. Okay, we
Wait back it up, hold up. I know, I understand it's bad. What does that mean?
So Lolita is a book that was written in the 50s. Okay, the, yes, the actual definition of a Lolita, which I wrote down in my notes is a sexually precocious young girl, young girl. I just want to really emphasize that part a sexually precocious young girl as in a child. So the preface of the book is about this guy who flat falls in love with a child and believes that it's because of her, you know, demonic influence that he's in love with her because, again, you know, his pedophilia is because of her. It's her fault.
It puts the control on the child. Yeah. Dumb. It's dumb
Yes. And the idea of a Lolita, especially the way it's presented in the media, right? Is that this is a almost like a thing you should aspire to be. You should aspire.
The media was saying that?
No, just the in general the way that is put out there like a long island Lolita, right? It makes it seem like, Oh, don't you want to be so sexy and so captivating that older men might chase after you? Yeah, like it completely dismisses the fact that it's pedophilia. This is a child. Yeah. who shouldn't be thinking about being sexy or attractive? You definitely shouldn't be thinking whether older men are after her. Right?
Yeah, definitely shouldn't be plotting the murder of their boyfriends wife.
And so like then there's then you bring in like the grooming and the gaslighting, right. Like there's so much like so much and such a length of abuse here. Yeah. But nobody actually looks at that they, you know, they're like, no, we're going to ignore all the abuse. We're going to ignore the pedophilia we're gonna ignore the fact that you got a teenage girl into an escort service. We're that's not a big deal. Yeah. What happens is that you know, her one action is the only thing we're going to focus on. And we're going to still say that all of it is her fault.
Oh, I don't remember remind me. Did he? Did he do time or anything? Like he got in trouble for something, but I don't.
I think they were gonna press charges for statutory rape, but I don't think he served.
He served four months in jail. For a count of statutory.
So she was in there for seven years.
And just and his wife stayed with him by the way.
Yeah, for a long, long time.
That got shot in the face?
She didn't die.
Oh, she just she didn't die. But she got shot in the face.
She didn't have a good time of it.
The story he told was that This, he was never with this girl. She was just obsessed with him. They never had a relationship. And his wife believed him. And by all accounts, you know, this guy is really charming, right? But if this does not this scenario doesn't work if the if the person is not charming, right? They're just gross and awful like, yeah, nobody's gonna be with them anyway.
manipulative is yes, the word I'm going to use
Manipulative, super manipulative. Yeah, lots of gaslighting. And the thing about gaslighting is it's so hard to tell when you're in it. If you don't know what gaslighting is, it's a type of emotional abuse, where people the manipulator can kind of spin the situation to make it you feel like it's your fault or there's something wrong with you. If you know one way to know that you're being gaslighted is if you're upset about something and you go into an argument with this person that you're upset with. But by the end of the argument somehow you're the one apologizing Because it's suddenly your fault. And if that's happening to you repeatedly, you're probably being gaslighted. Yeah.
Yeah. layers upon layers
layers upon layers.
Yes. Oh my gosh.
So, you know, the media sucks the media really what we're trying say.
That's the word. That's it. That's all I got.
And it's like, and that's the patriarchy in this media.
Yeah. And I hate how in the media, it's like, there's evil people. And then there's good people, right? Yeah, I just, I hate that how there's always one side to it. Of Oh, well, this person like, like you said, the Long Island. What was that Laurita?
Lolita. I like that. Wait, I don't like that. It just sounds pretty. I like I hate that how it's always it's one. Someone's a hero and someone's the evil villain. I just
and that's not how people are. No, and there's passage about that in Chanel Miller's book to where she talks about how people were like he couldn't have done this like he had he had old teachers come speak on His behalf and write letters and you know, old people he worked with and ex girlfriends, I'll come to say no, I mean he's, he's so respectful and professional and wonderful. He couldn't he just couldn't have this isn't something he would do. And she's like, this can all live in one person one person can, you know do a great job in in class and, and be an awesome swimmer and also sexually assault someone it's not black and white, and none of this is black and white. And that is absolutely how the media paints because I think that's people are dumb. We don't we just that's easiest for us to digest. And it's just not real. It's just not the truth. Yeah.
And it has to do, like, this is real people, like a lot of I think what the media in social media does It kind of it kind of takes you apart and you're thinking you're reading a story, when in reality, it's like it's real actual people with real actual emotions in both sides like that. Just
Yeah, that's a lot of, you know, she she would she was obsessed with reading the comments on the news stories and everything and it was all just, you know, why was she even at a frat party? You know, why did she even drink that much? Yeah, no. And she was I
did she... I mean, you know, what happened or after? Like, did she stay at the school? Like, what?
She wasn't even a student there. She was there with her sister who was a student there.
Her sister who was a student, she was at a party because she was just around and so she's like, yeah I'll go. And I'll meet my friend over there. And yeah,
that's, that's what I hate with a lot of these allegations are, I think it's something like 82% of these cases are from people you actually know, and are familiar with, rather than like, just like a stranger in a dark alley.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, when we're talking about rape and sexual assault, we want the binary, right? We want these to be evil predators, that you don't know that it happens in a dark alleyway. Yeah. Because that's how it's presented to us. And what happens when we say, people can be good and bad, this situation can be messy, then people get really uncomfortable because we want to immediate and, and I'm going to preface this with I am not in any way justifying the actions of a predator or somebody who commits a crime, right? But what I'm saying is, somebody can and I would say probably in most cases, it's a person you know, maybe a person you love, maybe a person you like a whole lot, and it's a crime of opportunity. versus like a serial predator situation like Cosby or Weinstein that really gets blown up in the media, right? serial predators. It's, it's easier for us to look at that and say, Oh, this, this person is trash, obviously. But when it's like your brother or your friend, or your spouse, or your parents, or you know, somebody that you're really close with, suddenly that gets, it's like, I feel compassionate for the people. I feel empathetic for the people who have a hard time believing the victim in that. It is hard to admit that about somebody that you love because you're essentially losing that person. Yeah, and not that I'm saying you shouldn't believe victims because you 100% should Yeah. But I like when I came, so I was raped by my ex fiance on my 21st birthday. I was drunk. He took advantage of that. And I had repeatedly said that I wanted to wait until we were married. And that is, but when I had been with him for five years at this point, yeah, we were getting married in six months or less. And so when I told my friends who are also his friends, a lot of them did not want to believe me because this means A) something really terrible happened to somebody that I love a lot. And B) this also means this person who's been my best friend for all of these years is not who I thought they were, or maybe they are, but just are really capable of just these awful things. Yeah, and I don't know how to sit with that.
I mean, think about how hard it is. Even when it's just like a celebrity that you like to hear. Yeah, about them. You're like, yeah, I'm not Chris Hardwick or whatever.
Not that Chris Hardwick has been accused of anything?
Yes, he has.
He has. It wasn't he's been cleared. He has been cleared by at least two investigations.
Yes. And I that was my only example. Because that was the one where I was like, Oh, crap. I went Yeah.
He basically after the accusation, he stopped producing podcasts. were like, it was like six or seven months. Oh,
wow. I didn't know that at all.
Yeah. So that hard enough, but then to have it be, you know, a friend of yours or something. Yeah, actually. So yeah. I get it. I get it. Yeah.
And if someone you have to have continued conversation or continued relationship with, like, I, yeah, you know,
yeah. Well, if it's a family member, yeah. I mean, how often are you gonna gonna be like, we're just going to cut that person out of our family. Yeah, I know so many stories where it was a family member and you know, the parents or the siblings or the whoever just said, we'll just ignore them. Yeah, I have all the stories I know. And I know several I only know of one situation where, well, what ended up happening is they just stopped seeing that family all together. So it almost felt like a punishment to the victim because like, there's other family members, that I love but now I don't get to see anybody. You know? Yeah. Because people don't want to address it. Yeah.
Okay, well, we're inching up on the time here. So I think what we should do I think there's a lot of content here and I think we should continue forward a little bit more. But I think we need to stop this episode because I think we all need to take a break and I need to pee really bad.
Let's continue this in a part two. Yeah, for next week
before we and I just want to say, if you are somebody you know is being sexually assaulted the National Sexual Assault hotline is 1-800-656-Hope that's 1-800-656-4673. Or you can go to rainn.org and they will believe you.
Yes, yeah. And I hope that if something's happening, you can go to your friend and I really, really hope that we are friends. Like, both internally and all you women AFers out there are friends that can actually listen and not give judgment and actually say, Hey, I'm here for you. That's all it needs to happen.
We believe victims and you should too.
Yeah. Yeah, like that.
Let's close it with that.
All right. Well, We are women AF. And we know you are too
Women AF Podcast is produced by Mortar Box Media and engineered by Adam Rostad. Intro and outro music is SQZ by Shane Ivers, check them out at Silvermansound.com and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai