Episode 11: #MeToo Part 2

We didn’t say all we needed to last week, so this week’s episode we just keep going on the topic of  #metoo. We talk about how our justice system’s treatment of victims, weird expectations of women’s “modesty,” and how we can talk to our kids about consent and bodily autonomy. And again, personal stories are told. Listen in, and if you find that you have something to add to the conversation, we’d love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at womenafpodcast@gmail.com or find us on social media at:

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Show Notes and Resources:

We would love to hear what your reaction was to these cases. Shoot us an email at womenafpodcast@gmail.com or connect with us on social media at:




Become a Patreon supporter for exclusive behind-the-scenes material, to vote on topic ideas, get a bunch of great freebies and more at www.patreon.com/womenafpodcast.


Women AF is produced by Mortar Box Media and Engineered by Adam Rostad. 

Intro and Outro Music is SQZ by Shane Ivers. Check him out at silvermansound.com.

If you or somebody you know is being sexually assaulted the National Sexual Assault hotline is 1-800-656-Hope (1-800-656-4673) or you can visit rainn.org. 

Weisensee Egan, Nicki, Chasing Cosby, (2020)

“Amy Fisher.” You’re Wrong About, 3 Dec. 2018

Miller, Chanel. Know My Name. Viking Press (2019)




Transcript for Episode 11: #MeToo Part 2:

Please note: this transcript is for anyone who needs to or would prefer to use a transcript than listen to the episode. We do our best but please excuse errors in the transcript. 


Unknown Speaker 0:00
This is a mortar box media podcast for more podcasts and to learn how we can help you create your own visit mortar box media.com

Carrie 0:17
Welcome to Women AF. We're back here another week. We are your new favorite podcast. I'm pretty sure obviously I'm I'm Carrie and I'm here with Danny. Hey, and Nicole. That's me. And we're ready to talk about some more interesting, fun stuff this week. If you listened last week, you know this is a an extension of kind of what we talked about last week. Before we get to it, does anyone have any uplifting stories to start with?

Danie 0:50
Well, I would like to uplift talk about our Patreon Oh which is very uplifting for us because it helps support our podcast and helps us pay the lovely Adam, who helps us with literally everything. every tiny little thing. So our Patreon is patreon.com forward slash Women AF podcast you can join for as little as $1 a month. Everything helps us, everything supports the show. And Adam has so generously agreed that on our newest $20 tier that you get everything in the previous tiers. And in addition, you get some podcast consulting, which is invaluable if you ask us. Way more than $20 a month. He's done a lot of podcasts. And since we're obviously so amazing and you love us so much you know that clearly his consulting helps. If however, Patreon is not in your budget and you still want to support us, you can support us by subscribing. By rating and reviewing us, that helps other people find our podcast. You can also find us on all the socials, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook at Women AF podcast. And please talk to us, because we get lonely just talking to ourselves and we want to hear from you. And if you tell something really interesting, like we might read it,

Carrie 2:21
Chances are really good because we're gonna be so excited that we got a message at all.

Danie 2:24
Yeah, like we might read it on the podcast.

Carrie 2:27
Yeah. Like, like, ooh, for everyone to hear, if you've got something you want everyone to hear, this is the way to do it

Nicole 2:35
Yeah. You got a homeschool story if you have a crazy story like Danie always brings to the table.

Carrie 2:45
For our first theme, why don't you tell us your latest Danie-themed story, which means everything just goes to shit.

Danie 2:55
Everything is a wild ride.

Nicole 2:56

Adam 2:57
Also they don't just have to email written words to you, they could take out their phones and record something and email it to the email and we could play it on the podcast, we do have that capability and this might be foreshadowing into something that's going to happen later on this very episode

Danie 3:21
Speaking of messages, we want to read that fans have sent us in

Carrie 3:25
what you got.

Danie 3:26
I want to read something. Spoiler alert. This is from my mom, and it's about me. I told her I was gonna read it

Adam 3:35
It has nothing to do with the podcast.

Danie 3:38
But it went to our podcast email. So it's official. Yeah, yeah. So this is about Episode Four time management. And she says, You guys had some great suggestions on time management, time management with young kids can be a challenge. A lot of times kids like to help us do the housework. I would always make a game out of whatever had to be done so the kids would think it's fun to clean and help out Mommy, Danie mentioned that she used to get grounded from reading as a punishment. She was such an easy child to raise, and never really did anything wrong. I love that she enjoyed reading so much. It was an effective punishment because nothing else mattered as much to her as reading. That's the only reason we used that as a punishment. But that only happened a couple of times is she was such an angel, smiley face. Love the podcast and your suggestions.

Carrie 4:35
So she's kind of trying to cover her ass there is basically what she's

Danie 4:40
like, she just wants everyone to know how awesome I am, which I fully support.

Carrie 4:45
She just wanted to let everyone know she wasn't a monster. Who wouldn't let you read. Yeah, that's what I think.

Danie 4:53
I mean, I suppose that's one way to look at it.

Carrie 4:55
I mean, that was really cute though. Your mom is a big fan and she comments a lot and she does engage with

Danie 5:00
She was our our very first Patreon really fun. Yeah, yeah.

Carrie 5:04
Thank you. So thanks Danie's mom.

Danie 5:06
Yeah, you may like my mom have the opportunity to have your email read or played on our podcast. So it's Women AF podcast@gmail.com if you want to message us

Nicole 5:19
We'll be there

Adam 5:21
Can they also reach your email from your website like is there a contact...

Danie 5:25
can at Women AF podcast.com there's a whole contact page where you can tell us all kinds of things about yourself or how much you love us. We really like those emails.

Carrie 5:37
It would also be cool if you like followed us on Twitter and tweeted at us

Danie 5:41
yeah cuz Carrie's in charge of Twitter.

Carrie 5:43
Yeah. I want someone to pay attention to us on Twitter.

Nicole 5:46
Come on. Jared. My husband said that that was the first thing he followed is our Twitter page because he loves Twitter so much and he's like you guys got a good page. That's all carrie

Unknown Speaker 5:58
Danie definitely gets in there to.

Danie 6:01
Well Jared's got our top fan badge on Women AF podcast on Facebook. Oh my gosh, yes. And he's very proud of it. He's

Nicole 6:08
He's very proud. He wears it all day every day.

Carrie 6:15
We should have actual badges. That's an idea, right?

Danie 6:19
Maybe a future Patreon tier.

Nicole 6:22
I like it. Yes, it'll be cute designed by me. And we'll just make little badges. We have to think of names these badges

Carrie 6:28
top fan?

Nicole 6:29
Well, we have to have more

Carrie 6:31
We want this to be a Girl Scout situation where people have sashes full of badges?

Danie 6:37
I'm the biggest effer? Or if you're a mom, you could be

Nicole 6:44
a mother effer. Yeah

Adam 6:47
I have a question. Okay. So you guys have you've cussed on this show. I mean, Carrie just said shit.

Danie 6:55
I did. Yes.

Adam 6:56
Yeah. Are you making a delineation to not say the F word?

Danie 7:00

Carrie 7:01
I've said the F word on this show before

Danie 7:02
We were more or less playing with calling our fans effers

Adam 7:07
Just effers

Danie 7:08
like AF. Like a play off of the F

Adam 7:11
So I made this suggestion today I think you should just call them fuckers because when you do your ad reads and stuff you can be like what up fuckers

Carrie 7:22
that is pretty badass.

Adam 7:23
I mean it's pretty good.

Nicole 7:26
Yeah, yeah

Carrie 7:29
yeah I'm gonna do it if if anyone objects let us know. Email us, tweet us, but until then, we're calling you fuckers

Adam 7:40
it's a fucker meant with love.

Danie 7:41

Carrie 7:42

Danie 7:43
A love fucker?

Carrie 7:45

Nicole 7:46
Maybe not

Danie 7:47
not like that. Maybe No, I'm recanting

Adam 7:53
I like love fucker.

Nicole 7:56
My grandma, that was her endearment and she called us little shits Aw you little shit

Danie 8:00
I thought you were gonna say your gramma's enderament was calling everyone love fuckers

Carrie 8:11
All right. Now we talked about some darker stuff last week and we still have a lot to say, right? Yeah, we do. So we're going to continue with that. Maybe I should just throw out a trigger warning right off the bat here. We're going to talk about sexual assault. If that is going to trigger you or make you uncomfortable, you don't have to listen. That's fine. We'll still consider you a fan. It's okay. But before we get into it, let's just let's take a little break.

Danie 8:41
Today we're sponsored by our merch store!

Nicole 8:43
Wait, we have merch?

Danie 8:44
Yeah, we do. And one way to support our show is to go shopping in our store. If you go to Women AF podcast.com, and you click on shop, you have our logo'd merge which obviously is great because you know, you're walking advertisement for us, but the other thing is there's a lot of really cute designs in there. And who are they designed by Nicole?

Nicole 9:05
Well, I guess yeah, that's me.

Danie 9:08
They're designed by Nicole! And they're designed for you about stuff we love and just, you know, things like llamas for feminism and #beboss and awkward, which you can't see but you know, Nicole's wearing right now and Nicole's favorite shirt used to be cool, hashtag mom life. So all designs are cute and comfortable and 100% of the proceeds go to support the show, plus it's a great reason to go shopping. So head to Women AF podcast.com and use code WAF for 25% off your first order. And if you didn't just hear me I'll say it again. Go to Women AF podcast.com and use code WTF for 25% off your first order.

Carrie 9:49
All right.

Adam 9:50
Yes, all right

Carrie 9:51
We're back.

Adam 9:52
You are back. So I told I warned you guys that I was going to cut in after break and I just decided to do it right away and I also said maybe we were foreshadowing something. Speaking of listeners, and then sending in things and doing things and having questions for you guys, we did get a listener question

Nicole 10:12
No way.

Adam 10:12
Yeah, they checked out the episode last week and honestly, it's a question that I thought about as well. And and almost interjected last week to ask you it. But it was as we were winding down. And so since the question came in, I just thought, Well, why don't we play it during recording and you guys can can talk about it a little bit here at the top and answer it is it cool? Yeah. Here we go.

Caller 10:35
Hi, my name is Elizabeth. I listened to your last episode about me too, and the media and I was wondering if you guys think there's anyone who's been caught in me to movement and like responded the correct way.

Adam 10:48
So I don't know if you caught it. Elizabeth is wondering, is there anybody who's been caught in the me too movement who then like, responded correctly? Or is it has it been everybody just been like a piece of shit They get caught.

Danie 11:01
Do you mean? Like the perpetrator was caught and responding correctly or the media?

Adam 11:07
No. So so like, for example, Louis ck is the only person off the top my head, who I can think of is who when he was really caught, he went, he came out and went, yep, this is true. I do. his apology wasn't great. But he's the only person I can think of that he said that he's come out right away, admitted it after the allegations came out and made some sort of apology. Even then it was kind of half assed and not exactly what people wanted. But I'm curious, I was curious, at least what you guys felt like about that. If you can think of anybody who's responded correctly. Or, or even what is the correct response to from a celebrity like that from from Louie ck from Bill Cosby like, Is there a way for them to respond correctly? And then also, is there a way for them to still have a career afterwards did it is it even okay for them to have a career afterwards. I know that's a lot. That wasn't, that was more than what Elizabeth's question was but

Danie 12:05
I have an answer to the second half of that question. But first I can't think of anyone outside of Louis ck that responded in any way acknowledging that there is validity to the accusations but that doesn't mean there weren't that just means I can't think of anyone. I mean,

Carrie 12:20
there have been so many.

Nicole 12:22
Yeah, to the media, not to the media. But I know Bill Cosby came out to like, the first What was her name Andrea constant to her mom came out and said, I'm a sick man.

Unknown Speaker 12:36
Yeah, when though? Right off the bat?

Danie 12:38
Before there was even a, before they even pressed charges

Unknown Speaker 12:41
because the mom came by and said, like, what's wrong? What What happened? Why did you do this? And then he responded in a way where he physically said, I'm a sick man. And then he kept on saying, like, I'll pay for this. I'll pay for this, he kept on like doing all this stuff. So but he never came out in the media and said, Yeah, that's right or whatever.

Carrie 12:59
And also he kept doing it

Nicole 13:01
for years and years you're right

Carrie 13:02
So, not the right response.

Nicole 13:03
Right. Yeah. Is there a right response? Like what is the right response?

Danie 13:07
I I think that there is I think we live in a very cancel culture, which in and of itself could be its own episode. But essentially, like, if somebody does something wrong, we have to, like they have to lose everything. And that's the only level of justification. Right? And that applies, obviously, to sexual assault that applies to I mean, I've even seen people talk about oh, you know, my husband said, x and everyone response on like, my husband said, I looked fat. So everyone's like, Oh, you need a divorce. It's like, one thing happens. Let's, you know,

Carrie 13:45
burn it all down.

Danie 13:46
Burn it all down, right. Absolutely. And I think that purely from a logical sexual assault perspective, and I'm saying this as somebody who is a survivor, If we just burn it all down and allow no redemption for that person, they will not get better. We are opening the door up for someone being a serial predator because we are essentially selling telling somebody that they're trash. And when somebody really believes their trash, they act accordingly. Right? Like we know that that is human nature. And I'm not in any way saying people shouldn't. There shouldn't be justice served. There shouldn't be something that happens. But if my ex fiance the next day when I confronted him had said, you know, you're right, what I did was real shitty. I, you know, you were drunk. I took advantage. There was no consent. I mean, I can't say I'd stay with him. But I wouldn't have probably like, I can't I I think that it would have been much more healing for me. It doesn't mean it would have been okay. But at least like when somebody lies about it, and we both know they're lying. We both know they're lying. That really just compounds it, it makes it so much worse. You're at now you're adding gaslighting, anger and emotional abuse and like, you know, if somebody were to in like then the way that what they're saying impacts the people in your lives, right? Because like if he had admitted it and then our friends would say, Oh, you know, this, we know that this happened, now we can like we can help decide how to go forward. Yeah, like maybe we can support a way forward. .

Nicole 13:47
Yeah. And I mean admitting is the first step. Right, right. Like that's the first step to fixing what's happening.

Carrie 15:39
Yeah. And that's opening them up to possibly hopefully getting help. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, they can, like we said in the last episode, people aren't evil and good, completely evil and completely good. You know, everyone's got their good things about them so they can come back and do some good in the world and Be honestly remorseful. That's Yeah, that would be huge. Yeah, absolutely. And I think they can I have a follow up question yes.

Adam 16:08
To kind of what you said that we do live in a cancel culture where, especially in sexual assault realm of things, that is very much there is no redemption and there is no even even if somebody comes, gets that kind of accusation, and is very contrite and is like, yes, this happened. I deeply regret it. There's nothing I could do to make up for this. But even if they did everything right, and the culture we live in, there is no hope for that person. Like they're done. They're just done. And I'm curious what why do you think that is why aren't Why are we so much more willing to forgive a murderer and let a murderer become like a motivational speaker and become a successful whatever, as opposed to somebody who is a former rapist who has raped people. I have a theory about it. But

Carrie 17:00
Wait, first I need an example on what murderers we forgave.

Adam 17:04
Well, yeah, I mean, so I come from a church background. And I couldn't tell you the amount of speakers at church conferences that I've heard of people who grew up and and murdered people, or let's stay in the podcast world if you if you listen to the podcast, the one that's based out of San Quentin, the prison,

Carrie 17:27
yeah. Ear Hustle?

Adam 17:28
Yeah Ear Hustle? Yes. The the the main host, who is now a freed inmate. He was a He's a murderer. But people look to him and think, Wow, he's got he's got good things to say. People are more forgiving to murderers who have shown that they're contrite and they are sorry, they paid their time and whatever. But I but I think people are less forgiving to a rapist, but I'm just curious what your guys's thoughts are on it.

Carrie 17:56
I think right now, just, me too, is it's the new, not the new thing, but it's a revolution of sorts is new. It's like finally women are like, Hey, we can do this and we can fight this and we can feel our feelings and say what we need to say. And it's just something that people are feeling really strongly right now. And that might and just the amount of when a murder a murder someone, you know there's a small pocket of people were affected. Like all women have these stories. This is just women-wide, and it's just a big wave, big strong wave.

Adam 18:30
So you kind of touched on my theory is that I think we're more willing to forgive a murderer because they're, so obviously when somebody gets murdered, there's more than just the murder victim or the person who's dead whose families affected blah blah blah but I think somewhere in our lizard brains, we think, okay, I murdered Nicole. My victim is dead, and she can't suffer any more. So in 25 years, if I show that I'm contrite and sorrowful and, and regret it that's easier to forgive. If I'm a rapist and I raped somebody, my victim is living with that every day for the rest of their life. There's they don't get to move on from it. Yeah, Nicole, is a victim in the sense that she had to live through me murdering her, but after that, that's it for her that she doesn't experience the trauma over and over again.

Danie 19:21
Yeah, I think also from a criminal justice.

Adam 19:24
I'm not a murderer by the way

Nicole 19:27
You haven't murdered me yet?

Danie 19:29
From a criminal justice perspective. There's more murders. I don't have any stats to support this. So this is purely speculation, but I believe that murderers are probably more likely to be prosecuted than a rape.

Carrie 19:48
Yes. well, I don't know either.

Danie 19:51
There's evidence there's a body right? with rape, it often turns into a he said she said yeah, So what happens is you have situations where justice is not being served at a grand scale. Right? So there's obviously very famous murders that have not been solved, where obviously justice hasn't been served. And people like with the Golden State killer, get like wildly ecstatic when it's finally solved.

Carrie 20:21
You remember that?

Danie 20:23
I do. I do. You were so excited. It's like the best day of your life. But when people are raped, it's often it most often goes unreported. Yeah, it most often goes. If it is reported, it's rarely prosecuted. The person that's reporting it is often dragged through the mud. There's usually like retraumatization over and over like with the Cosby case, there was like, three times that they had to tell their story in court, not to mention like the media storm and all of that. So it's like, you have somebody being constantly re victimized. Justice is not being served. People are just beyond angry and so when it's like and I don't know if anyone's read The Handmaid's Tale.

Carrie 21:05
Yeah, it was a long time ago.

Danie 21:06
Well, there's a scene where the handmaids decide to take justice into their own hands, and they literally start ripping a man apart. Yeah, it's hard to read. Sorry, spoiler alert, if anyone hasn't read it, but it's been out long enough. Yeah, then there's a show. I feel like you should know but anyway. And so I think that's kind of where we're at. We find out somebody did something and we want to rip them apart.

Carrie 21:34
What did I messaged you guys, like two or three days ago? Yeah, I said, I'm like so immersed in all this reading and podcasts listening about all this stuff. And I just want to go rip a guy's dick off or whatever. I said, I don't know.

Adam 21:47
If you'll excuse me, I need to leave the room

Carrie 21:54
Yeah, it's just a lot of high emotions. And yeah, that's what's going on right now.

Adam 21:59
Yeah. Well, I thank you for answering my questions at least And Elizabeth's, I'm sure,

Carrie 22:03
Thanks Elizabeth

Nicole 22:04
Yeah, that was exciting.

Carrie 22:06
It feels very official. We feel like we're real podcast. Yeah.

Nicole 22:12
That's crazy.

Danie 22:13
This was the moment we became a podcast.

Nicole 22:17
I like it.

Adam 22:18
You guys can quit now. Yeah, there's no point in going on

Carrie 22:23
We reached the peak of success.

Nicole 22:25
Someone talked to us.

Carrie 22:26
We're taking our two Patreon members and going home. All right, Danie, you actually touched on something I kind of wanted to talk about. And that was the retraumatization going through the process of prosecuting a rape. Like this is what they want. This is what the victim wants, you know, they want to they want justice. Yes. They want their attacker to pay basically But in going through that process, I think they're just damaged more and more and more. Yep. In so many ways. And it's the public nature of it. And it's the having to retell the story in great detail. It's, you know, photos being shown to a room of people of, you know, naked body parts and just embarrassing things. And just the, the lack of any consistent schedule. This was a big thing in Chanel Miller's book, where they would be like, okay, we're gonna, we're going to go in to trial on this date, and then they be like, Nope, not that day is going to be this day. Nope, not that day, this day. I mean, she basically had to put her whole life on hold. She had to just, she had no job at that point. She was just kind of living with this and trying to, you know, fight her way through just days of thinking about this and how she was going to speak on the stand. And, you know, when they're up there, they're not supposed to show too much emotion. They shouldn't cry too much. Yeah. Or they also shouldn't be too calm. Like, there's just a very specific way they're supposed to deliver their testimonies.

You know, they're just

Nicole 24:16
Just to be heard, right?

Carrie 24:17
Yeah. So they're not and listened and it's again, so everyone's not like, she's hysterical. She's a hysterical woman. You know,

Nicole 24:24
she must be crazy.

Carrie 24:25
Yeah, it's got to be exactly right. They're going through cross examination,

Danie 24:30
which is awful

Carrie 24:32
Cross examination is where you're going to get all that rape myth stuff coming at you live. And how much did you drink? Exactly. And why did you drink that much? And do you typically drink that much? And you know, did you were you weren't, were you in the mood to hook up with someone that night?

Danie 24:48
How sexually promiscuous are you, how many partners have you had before,

Carrie 24:53
and this is all just so damaging, damaging over and over for years. And I'm just wondering I mean, this is kind of our criminal justice system. It's messy. Yeah, there's a lot of problems. But is there anything that, is there a different way? Do you think we could potentially do this to get like the fairness and both sides heard and without it being just completely retraumatizing?

Nicole 25:21
I think that begs the question of like, what is justice then? Like? Is it that they're sitting in jail or like what what is justice?

Carrie 25:31
Yeah, I mean, yeah. And I think that's probably what most people are going for to get the attacker behind bars. Is my guess. It's just the road there is ridiculous.

Danie 25:44
Yeah, it is. I mean, I think one thing that has to happen is we need a clear definition of consent. Because like even in the Cosby case, the big thing was whether or not these interactions were consensual right and when the the jurors asked the judge. Well, what is the legal definition of consent? The judge said, we don't have one. Yeah.

Carrie 26:07
It's so nebulous. It's so gray.

Danie 26:10
Yeah. Well, so for anyone who doesn't know, consent, is an enthusiastic yes, from all participating parties, but there are there are caveats to that. You have to be able to say, like, maybe not verbally, but you have to be able to be in a state that you can consent. Someone who's passed out drunk, somebody who is too young, somebody where there's a major power imbalance and they maybe feel like a forced yes. Yeah, those are not, that is not consent. That's not how it works. And actually, in the Amy Fisher podcast that we referenced in you're wrong about she had a quote that I thought was super Interesting, where she talks about how the host of the podcast talking about like a coerced yes or like a pressured yes. Yeah, that's not the same thing as consent and there's just this quote I wanted to read. That's from Amy Fisher. In after everything came out in the media, she said, I feel like what people really don't realize in this country how many people get murdered or raped or become involved in things that they would not choose for themselves? Because they are basically afraid of being rude or hurting a man's feelings.

Carrie 27:36
Listen, this was something I was thinking about when we went to story slam last week. And the topic was bad dates. And it was a really common thread running through the night All night, like how many women were like, and it seemed kind of weird, but you know, okay, I was I'll just go with it. So many women that night said that that was part of their story. And lo and behold, that leads to a bad date. You know?

Nicole 28:08
It happened with me. I mean, like, so for me, one of my first boyfriends, he kept pressuring me to do things, and I wanted to wait until marriage. And he kept pressuring me and pressuring me and told me like, all right, well, you're my girlfriend, like, you're my girlfriend. You got to do this stuff. And I kept saying, No, no, no, no. And after a while, he we were leaving for spring break, because this was in college and he brought over a bottle of wine and he's like, all right, well, let's, let's just have a drink as like our final our final night. Okay, sure. So I started drinking a little bit and then he we started making out and then he started saying, like, Well, are you ready? Like, let's go. And I kept saying no, no, but not physically like pushing him away because obviously, he's making boyfriend. Well, it escalated and he started like unbuttoning my pants. And we didn't actually, like have sex, but it got to a point where like, I just started to cry like this, this isn't happening. This is crazy. And then he made me feel bad about it. Like, as just the ending situation was he like, hung his head and was like,

Carrie 29:28
you're my girlfriend, though.

Nicole 29:30
Is it okay, but I didn't feel like I could actually say something because I felt like a bad girlfriend for not wanting to continue things further and continuing on this whatever path he wanted to take. And then it took me months to years to tell anybody that this was happening. And the bastard was in my classes because he was in my major in art school. So I had to see now so great, so I had to see him. For four years following that, and like, I, just until the last I think it was even like the last five years of my life, I started realizing like, that wasn't okay. What he did that was not okay. And that wasn't my fault. Like it was more or less me saying like, well, it's fine. He's my boyfriend. I feel bad for saying no, obviously, I need to just let you know stuff happen. It just the idea of consent and pressuring somebody. It's just just sucks.

Danie 30:35
Yeah. And

Carrie 30:36
yeah, women tend to be raised to be people pleasers. Yeah, to keep everything comfortable. keep everyone happy. Yeah. And that's a big part of this. I think, you know, it was like, Oh, I was uncomfortable, but I didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

Danie 30:52
I thought I just grin and bear it. It'll be over soon enough.

Nicole 30:56
Yeah. And then he'll be happy again,

Carrie 30:58
way too common. Yeah, that's how how do we raise our girls to not be that? I really think about this a lot, you know? And how how do I get that point across to my daughter that she can feel free to make people uncomfortable? And she can feel free to say no. And be a jerk about it if she wants.

Danie 31:29
Yeah, we have a couple of very strict rules in our house. Yeah, our kids do not have to hug or kiss or in any way touch anybody at any time. I have that rule too. And do you get pushback from some relatives? I

Carrie 31:42
know that drives me insane. Yes. Yes. Like she doesn't want to touch you. Why is that a problem for you?

Danie 31:48
Yeah. And that applies to you know, mommy and daddy to ever we say we're leaving. We have a hug and she says no, and it's like, okay, yeah, she has to acknowledge people and Phoenix will too when he understood What's happening? In that you can wave, you can nod, you can say hi, right. You don't have to touch anybody.

Lots of other ways to greet.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, the other thing I started doing recently is so Nova is extremely affectionate with Phoenix. In Phoenix is not a fan. Mm hmm. And so I started, like, we started saying things like, if you're both going to play, you both have to be having fun, or you cannot play that way. You can't play that game. And so I think it's, um, it's just talking to them in a way that gives them their autonomy, right? Like if you want to play alone, play alone. You do not have to play together. You have to be kind to each other. You have to be respectful. If he doesn't want you like strangling him or hugging him so hard. Like you have to get off him. You don't have a right to do that to somebody else and vice versa like it When he pulls her hair even though he's a baby, and really doesn't realize what he's doing? We say no, Phoenix. You can do that to know but she doesn't like it.

Carrie 33:09
Yeah, it's for Nova sake. Mostly. Yeah, I heard a good message. Yeah, yeah, we have the same thing with Maya. She's constantly she's very touchy feely with her brother. He doesn't like it. She like just constantly reach over and kiss him on the cheek or something. And he's ew. I'm like, Maya, you can't do that. Dang. She's so loving

Danie 33:31
It is honestly something that I feel very panicky and anxious about all the time.

Carrie 33:35
Yeah, it's stressful

Nicole 33:36
And girls in general,

Carrie 33:39
Yeah, and with my girl, she's naturally she is going to be the type that's going to shrink back. That's just part of her personality. Yeah. And so how do you push that out of someone? Like how do you be like, you got to be more assertive? Yeah. It's not in her nature.

Danie 33:57
Or maybe just teach her to remove herself.

Carrie 34:02
Yes, that is definitely something we talk about.

Danie 34:06
Because one time parents always did, which I really liked. And I've seen this on Pinterest and other things is, you never have to be in a place with a any person if you don't want to be there. So like that could be for kids, a teacher, if your teachers making you uncomfortable, it does not matter that it's the authority figure you leave and call me

Carrie 34:27
that's really important.

Danie 34:28
Or if you're at a sleepover, and you know, the other kids at the sleepover are in any way making you uncomfortable. You do not have to spend the night It doesn't matter if it's 3am call me Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I think that was just so ingrained to be like, there's an authority person, whether it's a parent or a teacher or whatever, we have to do what they say. And it's trying to teach them balance while also being like but you do have to listen to me when I tell you to put your shoes on.

Carrie 34:56
That's the thing, there are so many, this not that, like teaching my kids to respect other people's private parts as they are private to that person, but also like to do in a way that's not making private parts seem weird or like, or body shaming or anything like that, that is a struggle.

Danie 35:20
Or like, but when we change your diaper, we also need to wipe the poop off your bottom.

Carrie 35:26
Yeah, so many layers. Yeah, yeah, it's tough.

Nicole 35:29
Yep. My kid currently puts her hands in her pants, like all the time. Yeah. And I'm sitting there like, Ah, crap, what do I say?

Carrie 35:37
My son did that for a long time. It was it was his teacher that finally, he was doing it at school in like kindergarten, his teacher finally would say she would kind of call him out. And that was what got him

Danie 35:51
Yeah, it's it's hard. It's hard to find that balance.

Nicole 35:55
Yeah, because you don't want to shame them. Yeah. And then you don't want to make it even bigger. deal of it

Danie 36:00
Right. Because you don't want them to be afraid of their body either. Yeah. Or to think like modesty culture, which again, could be its own episode. I've got a lot of feelings about that. But I grew up in, you know, a private Christian school when true love waits was a huge thing. And we had true love -- do you know what that is?

Carrie 36:22
No, I wasn't raised like that

Danie 36:25
So true love waits was a big movie and the movie, nope. The big movement in the '90s and 2000s, where essentially, you are committing your virginity to your spouse. There was a book that came out around that time called I kissed dating goodbye by Joshua Harris. Oh, I just mean, this book was so ingrained he had multiple series regarding that and the idea was, like, you're not really we shouldn't go back to like courting You know you wait until your marriage night and like you should you're essentially committing your virginity to God. Like to the point where at these rallies like we had to sign a thing.

Carrie 37:12
I don't like that

Danie 37:13
We had truelove waits purity rings.

Nicole 37:16
Oh, yeah, I had that.

Danie 37:16
Yeah, me too.

Nicole 37:17
I had to write it -- I didn't do it at school, but I was homeschooled.

Carrie 37:22
Were you? Wait, I don't know if I've heard about this

Nicole 37:25
I haven't said it in the last couple episodes. Guys. I was homeschooled. All right, go on, Danie

Danie 37:31
And, but the way this conversation was presented, a it's primarily targeted at girls, right. I feel like I don't need to say that. But I'm going to say that just so we're all clear.

Nicole 37:44
Well, yeah, okay. Sorry. Go on. I was gonna ask a follow-up question but I'll wait until you're done.

Danie 37:50
Okay. And not only was it primarily targeted at girls, but the way this information was presented is if you don't wait, you're like, you know, Chewing gum stuck on somebody's shoe that like they just like, you're walked all over and the stickiness is gone or you're like a piece of tape that's been stuck to a bunch of stuff. And you pick up all this stuff from other people and there were other analogies but the chewing gum really is the one that in so it was presented in a way that if you if you have any sexual relationships, and that didn't include just sex, okay, there's also like making out any of the bases doesn't even matter if somebody looks at you funny.

Nicole 38:37

Danie 38:38
You're a piece of crap. You know, and it was really presented in a way that essentially said, girls your value is in your virginity. Yeah. And if you lose your virginity, You're no better than a piece of chewing gum on the bottom of somebody's shoe.

Carrie 38:53
Now, that's not a healthy message.

Danie 38:55
It really isn't. No, no.

Nicole 38:57
So my follow up question is we talked about kind of how we you know talk to our girls about it? How I don't have any girls but how do you guys talk about

Danie 39:06
You don't have any girls?

Nicole 39:06
I don't have any girls.

Carrie 39:07
You don't have any boys.

Nicole 39:09
Wait, yeah I had that wrong I have got two girls, I don't have any boys. Gosh, I gotta screw up somewhere. I don't have any boys so how do you guys talk to your boys because I think that's another misconception is we're always talking to the girls like, be safe be safe save your virginity when guys too, like there's two people in this and in both you know in our scenarios, you have to talk to the guys about it too and how are you guys going to plan on talking to your boys?

Carrie 39:46
Yeah. Let me think. No, you know he's six, my boy's six. So again it's got to be age appropriate and again it's, Man, he he thinks boobs are hilarious or interesting or whatever and he wants to touch my boobs and Adam is noding.

Adam 40:10
I was nodding before you said he wants to touch your boobs just

Carrie 40:15
That's true, not at that. Yeah. Yeah, it's a hard to get it into his head like you. This is just not an appropriate thing to do. Like people aren't going to appreciate this. And that's what I was talking about, like trying to say this to him without making it be like, ooh, boobs are off limits and weird and mystical thing.

Danie 40:37
I actually feel like the part of the problem is that we make this two separate conversations. Yeah, I don't think the conversation should be different, regardless of the gender or non gender of the child, right? Yeah, it shouldn't be. Everybody, including yourself, has autonomy. If they do not want to be touched, you do not touch them. End of conversation and if you don't want to be touched, nobody touches you. Yeah, like, and I think it's how we, we have to stop, like we have this idea that boys or men are incapable of controlling themselves.

Carrie 41:18

Adam 41:22
I'm raising my hand. So I used to host a religious podcast with a pastor. And I talked and we did an episode about modesty and we talked about modesty honors beauty, it's a concept in church. And, and my gripes that I brought up with this pastor is that every, every church camp I ever went to, or every youth conference that was at a hotel that had a pool or anything, it was girls. It didn't matter if they had a two piece swimsuit, or if they had one piece swimsuit, they had to have a T shirt.

Danie 41:56
Oh, yeah, I remember those t shirts.

Adam 41:57
And yeah, my question would him was why do we do that? And he was like, Well, you know, teenage boys their home hormones are out of control and like Why? Why even give them the temptation and blah, like, okay, but why isnt the conversation? Hey boys, don't be fucking idiots.

Carrie 42:16
Thank you

Adam 42:16
Keep it in your pants, you are you are old enough to be swimming. If you are old enough to swim in a pool without drowning. You're old enough to have responsibility to not be a dickhead.

Carrie 42:30

Adam 42:31
And he like he could not answer that. Like he he'd be like, hey, you just you just don't understand, for teenagers, and I'm like, I was a teenager. I was one. So I do understand the hormones and what it's like to be in a swimming pool with hot girls and bikinis. I do get it. But I also never like reached out and like grabbed a boob.

Carrie 42:53
Yes, you can control yourself. You got a brain that controls your arm.

Adam 42:58
I would always say Why Why don't we talk to men? Why don't we talk to teenage boys the same way as church people that we talk to teenage girls? Yeah, yeah. Why do we put the onus completely on a woman.

Carrie 43:10
Yeah. And that same exact situation happened with my niece, this past summer and she was going on a school trip. Swimming trip. I don't know what it was. And yeah, the rule was all girls had to have a T shirt on. Yeah, and awesomely enough, her mom, my sister in law, kind of raised a little stink about it. I think so. I don't know what happened with that. But it's ridiculous.

Danie 43:32
and I think that, Yeah. When we when we say that the onus is on teenage girls, who, by the way, have a lot of hormones happening also. Yeah, it's very hard to be a teenage girl. Yeah, for a lot of reasons. And if we instead said, we believe teenage boys and teenage girls and teenagers in general, that you are responsible humans who know, to like not disrespect other people's bodies, they would probably act accordingly. But it goes back to people act, how we tell them they are.

Carrie 43:42
Yeah, let's show them that we have trust in them. And we have faith in them to not be a dick.

Danie 44:15
Yeah, if we say teenage boys, you are completely incapable of controlling yourself, and if you can't, it's really not even your fault. Because, you know, that girl had just a suit on. Yeah, how dare she, How could you control yourself. Yes, she should really be thankful that you were so ravished by her beauty that you couldn't control yourself. Like, that's how we talk to them. That's essentially what we're saying. We gotta stop doing that.

Carrie 44:47
Do you think that it is getting better? Do you think that it is changing?

Danie 44:51
I actually think the the gender conversation is helping this conversation because if we stop trying to Put everyone in a binary like female equals x male equals x. You can only be like super masculine, or super feminine or whatever you like, the more we disrupt that conversation. I feel like the more we disrupt this conversation around, you know, modesty, and

Carrie 45:22
gender roles, gender norms, gender inequalities. Yeah, I do think that conversation though like gender fluidity is kind of a much more slow-turning one than like the me too thing?

Danie 45:37

Carrie 45:38
So I'm hoping that this whole me to stuff is actually getting people to raise their kids with more open eyes and you know, putting the onus on everyone to not be gross.

Danie 45:49
Yeah, and I do also want to add a caveat that this conversation we've been having is primarily focused on cisgendered mostly white women, though the Cosby case, obviously had some black women involved as well, this conversation is a lot harder for people who are trans or LGBT, or people of color, or people who are somewhere on like the non binary spectrum or whatever this conversation is much more difficult because they already have really intense discrimination for a variety of reasons. And then on top of that, so like, the the media or the courtroom already is serving up injustice for them and like, we'll just do it even more. So I do want to also clarify like, I think that that is important to know. Yeah, and as we are, you know, hashtag me too, like, inclusive feminism is really important, right? Like, yeah, we need to include everybody in that. And this conver- like even the autonomy conversation, Heck can extend well beyond just sexual assault and harassment.

Carrie 47:03
Sure. Yeah. Well, I really hope that these conversations are happening in homes and, you know, in friend groups, and I hope it's all just getting out there and we can kind of do better. We all have to do better. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty good place to wrap it up. For

Nicole 47:25
we'll put all of our resources and things we've listened to and read in our show notes. So if anybody wants to listen to the Cosby cases, if anyone wants to listen to the different books that Carrie referenced, the different podcasts. We'll put those in the show notes so you can see them there.

Danie 47:41
And I also again, want to mention if anyone is being sexually assaulted, abused or raped. The National Sexual Assault hotline is one 800 656. Hope that's 1-800-656-4673 or you can go on the website@rainn.org RA i n and that o RG

Carrie 48:04
All right. Thanks guys. Very good conversation and thanks to all the listeners who joined in. We are Women AF and we know you are too.

Women AF is produced by mortar box media and engineered by Adam Rostad intro and outro music is Sq z by Shane ivers, check them out at Silverman sound calm and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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