Episode 15: True Crime Obsessed

I think it goes without saying that the three of us bonded, in part, over murder podcasts, right? (Duh.) Well in this ep, we finally get to talk about one of our favorite topics, true crime! We each get into what it is about the genre that compels us, and we talk about why it’s such a popular form of “entertainment” among women. 

Listen to the full episode: 

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Show Notes and Resources:

If you’d like to chime in and help us unravel why true crime somehow all at once fascinates, terrifies, and empowers those of us that are addicted to it, hop onto our socials and join in the conversation! Or just suggest a new murder podcast for us to add to our queues!




Become a Patreon supporter for exclusive behind-the-scenes material, to vote on topic ideas, get a bunch of great freebies and more at www.patreon.com/womenafpodcast.

Women AF is produced by Mortar Box Media and Engineered by Adam Rostad. 

Intro and Outro Music is SQZ by Shane Ivers. Check him out at silvermansound.com.


Episode References: 


And That’s Why We Drink
Jensen & Holes: The Murder Squad





Transcript for Episode 15: True Crime Obsessed

Please note: this transcript is for anyone who needs to or would prefer to use a transcript than listen to the episode. We do our best but please excuse errors in the transcript. 

Unknown Speaker 0:00
This is a mortar box media podcast for more podcasts and to learn how we can help you create your own visit mortar box media.com

Nicole 0:17
Hi, and welcome to Women AF we're here just trying to survive in this crazy pandemic world. Speaking of that, just want to give you guys a note that we are recording kind of at a weird time since we're all quarantined. So the audio might be a little difficult but thank you so much for rolling with us and still listening. We have somewhere in her house we have Danie over there.

Danie 0:42

Nicole 0:44
And somewhere in her house we have Carrie

Carrie 0:47

Nicole 0:48
All right, ladies. Let's do some roll call. How are you guys doing?

Carrie 0:53
I'm actually doing better than when we last talked cuz my husband's been home the whole time. So The Kids Are All his to deal with.

Nicole 1:02
I just do my work. It's pretty good. Nice. Is he doing? Is he taking over the schooling then?

Carrie 1:08
I I don't think there's a lot of learning going on. I don't know, they play outside a lot, which I'm totally cool with. It's actually technically Spring Break week for their school. So let them just ride around on their bikes it's cool

Nicole 1:23
That works that works. Yeah. Danie, how you doing?

Danie 1:26
Ah, good. It was, um, first week of furlough. So, it the start of the week was just kind of odd because I sent since I've been working, which is I don't know, since I was like 14 or 15. I've never just had a week where I don't have to do something. So at the beginning of the week, it was I mean, other than like your regular you know, stuff like making food and keeping kids alive and you know, cleaning stuff like that, but like I'e never had to like, do work or school or be like having a planned vacation where we're doing stuff. So it's been kind of strange because it's like my list of to-dos is all things that like, I want to do and like they're like the deadlines are deadlines I'm creating, you know what I mean? So it's just but it's good. I mean, it's been it's been a good week, but it's, it was a weird adjustment.

Nicole 2:28
Are you finding you're pretty good at keeping your own deadlines?

Danie 2:32
I make lists that are basically impossible to complete in a day like the first day I probably put like, 20 things on my to do list and Daniel was like, why don't you just put like finish redoing the entire basement on your list because these are totally unrealistic expectations. Yeah, so my thing is, I feel like I need to get all this stuff done. Just I'm so used to being busy. And then I put way too many things on my list. And then I'm like, oh, man, I didn't get, you know, these other 15 things done.

Carrie 3:14
It's a call back to this call back to episode 4, time management. Yeah, you talked about that, like, you tend to put too much stuff on your list. So you

Danie 3:21
I do. Yeah. I don't understand why I didn't finish, you know, remodeling the entire basement on Monday.

Nicole 3:29
I mean, it's an easy thing. I mean,

Danie 3:30
yeah, come on. What's going on here. I did discover though, that I like I always, in my head. Imagine that I'm a crafty person in terms of like, Pinterest crafts. Yeah. And so I really was like, trying to paint these really cute little signs that was like, ones like "meals and memories made here." Whereas going to put it in the kitchen. I'm like, I'll get a paint pen. This will be so easy. Had to repaint it and paint over my handwriting at least three times because it looked like something my three year old did, it was so terrible and I know that this artistic craftiness is definitely just in my head and not actually a real skill I possess

Carrie 4:20
That's awesome. I want to see that actually, you should post that on the on Patreon or something.

Danie 4:24
I mean, I already painted over it. It was so embarrassing. I was like I can't let anybody see this and Daniel's like, well, you wanted it to look really homemade didn't you?

Carrie 4:38

Nicole 4:41
Well, if you do any more post them on our Facebook or Instagram or Patreon,

Danie 4:47
posted, posted somewhere, but if someone were to look for those things, where might they find them, Nicole?

Nicole 4:53
Well, good thing you asked. They can find them at a backslash Women AF podcasts and all the socials Instagram, Facebook. We have a website, Women AF podcast calm and then we have a Patreon, everywhere.

Carrie 5:13
Hey Nicole, do you like how on every episode Danie like, challenges us with that?

Nicole 5:19
It's scary. Yeah.

Carrie 5:21
And where might they find us, Nicole???

Nicole 5:30
I freeze up every single time so I'm like, Oh no, I don't know

Danie 5:34
It's a test, pop quiz!

Nicole 5:44
Yeah, I have a fun story. So one here. I um I ran over to Carrie's house and I stayed, you know, six feet away, but somebody recognized my voice, like I never met her before. And then she's like, Oh, you must be from the podcast. I'm like What? She says my voice just from hearing one sentence that I've said so

Unknown Speaker 6:09
yeah, you just like barely said a few sentences and she was like, Oh, it's so nice to put a face to the voice. I was like, Whoa,

Danie 6:17
who recognized you?

Unknown Speaker 6:18
My next door neighbor Abby

Danie 6:19
Hey, Abby. Awesome.

She's a faithful listener.

Carrie 6:24
Yeah. Nicole got recognized.

Nicole 6:28
Yeah, it was really cute.

Danie 6:30
You're famous now

Nicole 6:34
I can't walk anywhere

Danie 6:35
You're the first person to be recognized for the podcast

Carrie 6:39
It was a thrilling moment for all of us.

Nicole 6:42
And it was super confusing too, because I'm like, What what? It was,

Carrie 6:49
yeah. Tell them why. Why were you at my house Nicole?

Nicole 6:54
Oh, so I was at your house because I was furloughed as well, this week, this was my first week. And so I do a little bit of photography on the side and I went around our little Belleville community, and took pictures of people all with my zoom lens. So I was, you know, in the street. And just to kind of commemorate and show off that, hey, we're surviving this pandemic and put a little smile to people's faces. So I went around the community and took pictures and it was really fun. I met a lot of cool people that I didn't know before. So it was just really fun to just see the community and put smiles on their faces. I don't know. It was cool.

Carrie 7:37
It was really cool. Yeah.

Nicole 7:39
So I took Carrie's picture

Danie 7:43
I saw it, it's super cute.

Carrie 7:45
You saw it? Yeah, it was cute. I love it. Thank you, Nicole. It was really cool.

Nicole 7:50
Yeah, yeah.

Danie 7:52
Yeah. And Carrie, you had a birthday.

Carrie 7:55
I did. yesterday. I had a birthday yesterday. And all things considered it was a pretty awesome birthday honestly

Danie 8:02

Carrie 8:06
Well like my work team made it really special like they had a cake sent to my house. Isnt that crazy? and then we have like a little check in meeting every day on camera on teams and they all I like logged into it and they all had like decorations or signs or like someone was wearing a party hat like stuff like that it was really cute yeah and then I saw my parents for the first time in you know, weeks, they came over and we did like a social distancing birthday party on the front lawn. They brought chairs and stuff and and we all just sat six feet apart and had a little party. It was pretty cute. They brought they brought food and wine and stuff. It was great.

Danie 8:57
That's so sweet.

Carrie 8:58
Yeah. It was a good birthday.

Nicole 9:02
That's really good. I'm glad it's always hard to do birthdays in this weird time.

Carrie 9:07
Oh my gosh, yeah. Oh, man.

People made it work, people made it work, was cute.

Nicole 9:14
And that's great. I'm glad Yeah. Awesome.

All right. Well, this has been fun. Let's ,I wanted to talk about, we're gonna do a topic today that I'm really excited about. We've talked about this topic a lot. But we've kind of waited to do it until we it always gets pushed back. So this talk is going to be about women and true crime. And we mentioned before how we're all you know, true crime podcast listeners, and we kind of have a fascination with it. And we wanted to talk a little bit about kind of why we think we have that fascination with it like what draws us to it, but First, let's take a little break.

Danie 10:04
Hey, so I know you're both into wine right now.

Carrie 10:07
Oh, yeah. Always

Nicole 10:10
Nicole's over there with her wine jug and no real wine opener.

It's almost gone.

Danie 10:16
And Carrie. You're a fan of the dry kind, right?

Carrie 10:20
I love dry but honestly, I don't discriminate, I'll drink any of it.

Danie 10:25
Well, one way to follow safer at home and still get your wine fix is to visit wink, WI NC.

Carrie 10:34
What is WINC, tell me more

Danie 10:36
What makes WINC awesome is that not only do they make their own wine, which is delicious, but they have this fun quiz when you go on to their website, where you can fill out their flavor profile quiz and they'll give you recommendations. Because, I mean, I don't know about you, but I usually pick wine by the picture on the label.

Carrie 11:00

Danie 11:01
And sometimes that works and sometimes it does not. I've had some pretty terrible wines doing it that way. So but what makes this flavor profile great is after they make these recommendations, you can rate them and the more you rate, the better the recommendations will continue to improve. So it's basically a wine algorithm which makes the nerd in me so excited. And so they are now one of our sponsors, which is super exciting. So to get $20 off your first order, go to Women AF podcast.com and click sponsors. So it's $20 off your first order, go to our website, Women AF podcast.com and click sponsors and all the information you need is right there.

Nicole 11:59
And we're back. Alright guys, let's talk a little bit about women and true crime. I know we mentioned this, we all really like True Crime podcasts and we kind of have a fascination with it. And lately, I feel like this fascination has kind of boomed especially in the recent, what, five, three to five years. I feel like we've always been out there the true crime fanatics have always been out there. But now it's a little bit more public, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, I want to talk about like, why I started liking it and which, which crime or I guess what kind of got me started. And for me, like they say that everyone has one true crime that kind of gets them going and gets them started on this path of like, fascination kind of thing. And mine was the Amityville Horror. Like the real story. It was fascinating. Like, I remember I was in high school and I, like devoured anything and everything I could read about, like what actually happened before all the movies. And yeah, it was just, it's just so crazy. What about you guys over here?

Danie 13:26
How'd you find out about Amityville. Amityville Horror. Was it like from the news or?

Nicole 13:31
I think my one of my old high school friends, they recently, not recently when I was in high school, they watched the movie. And then they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, it's kind of based on a true story. And I went, what? No, it's not. And so I started doing a little digging, and I found out that like, you know, it was I'm pretty sure it was a son. If I remember right, it's been years, but that just kind of flipped and killed, I think the mom and the dad, right.

Carrie 14:09
I don't know anything about it.

Danie 14:10
I thought it was the dad that flipped and killed everybody, but I might be going just off the movie.

Nicole 14:15
I think because there was, so the movie talks about two different instances. I think. Now watch, I'm going to get this completely wrong. Granted, it's been a long time, so I should have researched it. But, um, while I look it up. You guys tell me what was your first you know, True Crime obsession?

Carrie 14:37
Yeah, I don't I don't think I don't think I was super into true crime. Like before this whole like podcast boom of true crime topics came up. Because I think I think of course, like, everyone, I listened to the cereal, the first season of Serial, the podcast and I think that's what got

Danie 15:02
I've never heard Serial.

Carrie 15:04
Oh, for God's sake, Danie, come on. It took you too long to listen to my favorite murder. Now, you're telling me you haven't listened to the first episode of Serial?

Danie 15:15
I haven't. I'm really bad with the episodes that you have to listen in order.

Carrie 15:22
Oh, man, if you start, you'll keep going. I promise

Danie 15:25
I believe that.

Carrie 15:26
It's really great. And it's it's what I like about true crime. And I know not everyone likes this, but I like the kind of unsolved cases, technically they would call this a solved case. But you know, and in the end, you're just like, I don't know. I don't know who did it. There are so many possibilities. I don't know.

Danie 15:47
Yeah. Is it a real story or made up story.

Carrie 15:52
It's a real story. And there is someone in prison for this murder but this podcast, Serial casts a lot of doubts on that. And in the end, you're just like, Oh my gosh, I have no idea.

Nicole 16:05
So and they keep flipping to, like, after one episode, I'm like, oh, he definitely did it. In the next episode. I'm like, he didn't do it like

Carrie 16:14
yes. I love that.

Nicole 16:18
Is that what you like about it? Like,

Carrie 16:19

Nicole 16:20

Danie 16:21
It's funny because I would hate that. I can. I would be so mad if I listened to it.

Carrie 16:29
Are you one of those that does not like an unsolved case?

Danie 16:32
Correct. Okay, because I think for me, so I, I got into true crime by way of fiction. So I've, I mean, since I was a kid, I was really into like detective novels. Um, obviously, it was novels by age, right? So like, Nancy Drew when I was really little and then things like the women's murder mystery club series, things like that. And then from there, I got into more of like the true crime stories. But what I really like, and I actually have a I have a lot of conflicting views about the true crime genre in general. Based on I think the way people respond to it, so for me personally, what I really like about true crime, there's kind of a few different things, but it's, um, you know, the, the puzzle solving-ness of it, right? It's like a mystery to be solved. If the story is told, well, whether it's true or fiction, um, but then it's also hearing the victim story, which I feel like is really important. And then at the end, like, the justice right like, I I think that and that's why I really struggle with unsolved cases is because there's no justice for the victim. And so it just feels overwhelmingly sad to me.

Carrie 18:09
Yes, I get that. Um,

Danie 18:12
so like, I've actually there's some podcasts that I had to stop listening to because I felt like they glorified the murderer or their criminal to watch where they were, like obsessed with that person. And I feel like they kind of wiped away the victim, which was, I didn't like I really had a hard time with that. So like, I had to stop listening to some of them. Yeah, because so I don't know. I like okay, so I am an extremely empathetic person in the sense that if somebody is like hurting physically or otherwise, like, I tend to feel what they're feeling right. So I went to so I can't consume anything that's like you both know. I really like horror movies, but I can't do anything that's like torture porn or like home invasion or anything that's like super realistic. It's usually all like either thriller or like paranormal stuff like something like It where it doesn't feel like it would really happen in real life. But, so I was, I had a friend visiting me when I lived in New York. And she's like, let's go to a movie and I'm like, okay, and she goes, let's go see Zodiac and I thought it was about astrology.

Nicole 19:29
Oh, no,

Danie 19:30
it wasn't. I discovered in a scene where this couple was tied up and being murdered and I like, was not I was not expecting it at all. And I had a full on panic attack in the movie theater.

Carrie 19:45
Did you leave?

Danie 19:46
Oh, I had to I could not physically be in the theater anymore. But I had to like wait until I could like breathe and walk because like, it was the kind of panic attack where like I was doubled over and I couldn't breathe and I was like sobbing and people were like what is happening? I was like, I thought this was about astrology. So like, and that's how, like, there's been times or like we've been watching a movie at home. And like, we think it's one thing and like, pretty quickly Daniel's like, okay, we gotta turn this off because like, I will start having a physical reaction to the movie, even like, even if it's fiction, even if it's not a true story. So like, I have this very weird dynamic with true crime genre. So

Carrie 20:34
So how do you deal with that when you're hearing like, about murders of real human beings, like how do you listen to stuff like that? Yeah.

Danie 20:46
Well, part of it, I think, is that I'm very picky with who I listen to. Like they have to be empathetic to the victim. And I think in that how they tell their story is if somebody like that, my favorite murder, and that's why we drink. I feel like both do this really well, where as they're telling the story, they'll give you the facts, but they don't like dwell on the gore of it. I feel like they're very empathetic like, Okay, this is what happened. Um, it really is terrible. Like, you know, this, this person that's committing the crime is like a fucking monster. You know. And then one thing that I like too that, and that's why we drink did recently like the last one they came out with was a story. The true crime portion was a story about an indigenous girl that was kidnapped. And at the end, they go into, like, why violent violence and kidnapping against native and indigenous girls and women is like this huge problem and like, here's what you can do about it, and If you are a victim of these crimes, like here's some resources, if you want to learn more and find out how you can help, here's some resources. So I think for me, it's not just like, the part with the actual crime is hard, but like, what, to me makes it I don't know

Nicole 22:19
Like you can do something,

Danie 22:20
yes, I can do something or I'm just sometimes hearing, like somebody's story in a really empathetic way to the victim is like, I feel like that somehow brings justice to them.

Carrie 22:34
I agree with that.

Danie 22:35
Does that make sense? Okay.

Carrie 22:36
Yeah. It's only fair that we should we should know what happened to some of these people. Right? Yeah, I guess I don't know.

Nicole 22:45
I agree with that. Well, okay, so wait, Carrie, what do you what draws you to true crime?

Carrie 22:54
Well, like I said before, I like the unsolved cases and like Danie said, she'd does not like those because of the there has been no justice for the victims. But that's I think why I'm so interested is like I really desperately want these to be solved. So there is justice. So yes, I feel that overwhelming sadness that she mentioned, but it's like I have to like I just want it to be solved and Danie knows when the Golden State killer when they finally caught that guy how like excited I was, oh

Danie 23:34
Oh my goodness you were ecstatic. You were like, I haven't done any work today.

Carrie 23:39
I was glued to the news about it, because you know, I read the whole book, I read the book and I listened to multiple podcasts about that case, and I was like, Who is this crazy psycho monster

Danie 23:53
and didn't her book help solve the case?

Carrie 23:57
Um, it depends on who you ask. I think it probably at least brought some more awareness to it. But But yeah, the detective had been working on that case the whole time. So

Danie 24:10
well in sometimes isn't even just talking about the case and like bringing it back up. I feel like sometimes I can do a couple things. It can, like armchair detectives, like I've heard stories where armchair detectives have been like have helped solve cold cases.

Carrie 24:28
Yeah. And there's been a few instances of things like that lately. Like, did you guys listen to the teacher's pet podcast?

Nicole 24:35

Carrie 24:36
Yeah. That guy's arrested now and just pleaded not guilty yesterday, but I mean, come on. Yeah. But you know, I think it was because of that podcast that all came back again.

Danie 24:51
So and it also kind of puts pressure on law enforcement and like not let these cases stay cold right now,

Carrie 24:58
because people are still Really are demanding justice for the victims.

Danie 25:04
I really like Cold case files for that reason. Cold case files is a show on Netflix. Okay, where they're like old cases, usually from the 70s or 80s in with new like DNA in like other advancements, they go back and they end up solving the cases.

Carrie 25:27
Yes, I love stuff like that.

Danie 25:29
Yeah, I think those are great because it's like, you know, these people who've been like, feeling like, Oh, I got away with this and like, just living a normal life for, you know, 2030 years or however long. It's like, No, you don't get to do that anymore. Yeah, yeah.

Carrie 25:51
Well, um, so I like that. Sorry.

Nicole 25:55
I was gonna say I think that's really funny that both Danie and you Carrie, are more of the like, you want to fight the justice and like do something and have the cases solved when for me why I like true crime is I want to avoid it. So I listened to it just so I can like stay away from these situations and

Danie 26:17
To try and kind of like learn red flags and things like that?

Nicole 26:21
Yeah, yeah, like my favorite are the ones that like someone just snaps like out of nowhere. At least it's looks like it's out of nowhere, but there were signs kind of along the way. Those just fascinate me. Because who knows? Like, I don't know who's gonna flip out. I don't know if that's gonna happen. Like, what if it happens to me? I don't know.

Carrie 26:43
So what if you snap?

Nicole 26:45
What if I snap or what if somebody I know snaps, what happens, man?

Carrie 26:50
Yeah, yeah. Do you have an example of a case that you're?

Nicole 26:56
Well, um, I think that's why the Amityville Horror one. I just looked it up. So it was the son that killed his two brothers, his mother and his father and his two sisters. And I, I I think there were some signs like I think he had, I think a little bit of mental health issues, if I remember right, but also, I mean, have you guys heard about the Taliesin the Frank Lloyd Wright house? Okay, so it's in Wisconsin. So Danie, you should actually go it's actually a really cool house. But what happened was, Frank Lloyd Wright built this house and he was a and what does that call an architect? I don't know. Um, but he built the house and then he had a mistress there and then he would kind of pop back and forth between his mistress in there. Her family and his wife and then when he was out servant locked up all the all like the whole house and then set fire to it. And then the only entrance that was left that was not locked. He was standing right in front of with an axe. Like and he proceeded to kill I think it was like four or five people.

Carrie 28:26
Yeah, yeah. And they were kids involved too

Nicole 28:29
they were kids and like, and it was his servant like it.

Carrie 28:34
It's a crazy story.

Danie 28:36
It and that happened when did that happen? Oh, no.

Nicole 28:41
Hold on Taliesin murders, I'm googling it.

Carrie 28:44
I you know, I like to go to live live podcasts like my favorite podcast. I'll go see them live when they come around. I've seen two of the live ones I've seen. In Madison and Milwaukee. Two of them two different podcasts did that story Live. Yeah, so yeah, it's just a very interesting story.

Nicole 29:04
Yeah, it was. I think it was 1914

Carrie 29:10
Oh, wow. Wow. That's a long time ago.

Nicole 29:15
But the house is still standing like the house kind of burned down. And so, Frank Lloyed Wright came back and found what happened, like, buried every single person with by his hands and then rebuilt the house back up

Carrie 29:32
And they do tours there. And they do not talk about it.

Nicole 29:36
They do a little bit. Yeah, they do. Oh, I went on one and they talked about it a little bit. They didn't want to talk about much because they wanted to honor the family who lived there. But they showed like where it was, like we walked out on the porch and said like the Here it is. Here's what They locked everything up and then yeah, that's the kind of thing I don't want to happen.

Carrie 30:09
So you just want to kind of have like an awareness of what's possible.

Nicole 30:16
Yes, just

Carrie 30:17
just an awareness that makes you feel better you think? Yeah, yeah. I think there's Yeah, I get that. Like, I get that you want to kind of learn from the stories? Because like, it's for women like, since you're a kid you you know these stories you hear these stories you're taught to like, be really careful. And look out for people, look out for men, look out for strangers, any sort of red flag, so I feel like it's like we were brought up kind of, to be interested in these stories. Scared of them for sure. But also like, you want to find out more like what do you mean exactly that I could get murdered? You know, like you want to find out more? So I think that is part of it.

Nicole 30:59
Yeah, I agree.

Carrie 31:01
There's also the, you get interested in it because you want to learn more, you want to be aware, but then you also end up taking in too much and then you get stressed out and anxious. And every noise you hear in your house terrifies you.

Nicole 31:17
Oh, yeah. Especially now that I have kids like that level of heightened awareness of like, anything and everything could happen is so huge and so daunting and it's nuts.

Yeah, you gotta, there's got to be a balance. You can take it too far and then just get all out of whack with it, I think.

Unknown Speaker 31:41
I think so too. So what do you guys think I'm gonna I'm gonna ask the question of, what do you guys think? Why do it seems to be not predominantly women, but a lot of women I feel like have come forward saying how much they Like and not necessarily like, but they are interested and kind of drawnto true crime. Why? Why do you guys think that is like that?

Carrie 32:15
I do think it is a lot of that of the, you're scared of it. So you want to confront it. And it's just that feeling of as a woman, you're vulnerable. And that's just not a good way to feel you want to kind of understand it. So you can I don't know, be prepared. I don't know. not be so afraid. Maybe.

Danie 32:41
I was actually doing a lot of research today about this specifically on why women are obsessed with true crime. And you're right, it is predominantly women. I think it was something like 85% of the people who are interested in true crime are women and we're also women in general are often you know, the people that these crimes are most committed against, you know are most often victims of these crimes but so I'll post all the articles I was looking at just because they were so interesting in the show notes but the to kind of like to sum up like the psych the psychologists reasons is they said and I feel like I agree with this is one of five reasons so either one, it's fear of the crime and kind of like an interesting way to kind of deal with that crime almost like a What's it? What's it called? There's like a specific name for that psychology. It's like

Carrie 34:02
confronting your fears,

Danie 34:05
confronting your fears, but like there's a name for that type of therapy. I don't know if I think about it, I'll say it. I think I have it actually written in my notes somewhere, but I have a lot of notes and now I can't find it. Um, so it's like, it's kind of a way of like confronting your fears. It's compassion for the victims, which I feel like we talked about compassion for the victims and like kind of that justice at the end, a fascination with the motives. So kind of like this morbid fascination of trying to understand how a criminals mind works. Then there's like, actually just the puzzles of solving the crime. And then it's also the fifth reason was kind of like, an escapism. Yeah. Where it's a way of kind of like, escaping from your real life into you know, this other World almost

Carrie 35:03
That makes sense.

Nicole 35:04
They want to go there?

Danie 35:06
not like they want to go there. But like, here's actually there's a quote that I think is really good. That specifically on the escapism part kind of talks about how that like that thought, but also like how it can be problematic in that way. So this quote is from the author, Rachel Monroe, who wrote the book, savage appetites for true crimes, for true stories of women, crime and obsession. And I'll post this link as well, but she says, I think a lot of true crime fandom, especially for women exists in the zone between privilege and vulnerability, to enjoy it. You need to be privileged enough to not live it in your daily reality. If it's in your own life. It's hard to find entertaining, but also enough, aware of your own vulnerability to empathize. It's always complicated. So I think it's kind of like the, you know, when you're scared, it releases a lot of endorphins, right? So it's it can be thrilling to be scared.

Carrie 36:17
That's why people watch horror movies. Yeah.

Danie 36:20
Yeah. But if you're living in a, you know, like, if you're living, for example, in a domestic violence situation, you're not going to be probably wanting to watch a lot of movies that have that. Right. So, this there's this kind of privilege in that we can enjoy it because we're not living it.

Carrie 36:39

Nicole 36:40
Yeah. Oh, okay. I get that then, I understand that.

Carrie 36:46
One thing I want to call out is that you said that women are typically the victims of that have this kind of crime or I don't know. But I don't think that's true. I mean men are more often victims of violent crime. But I think the crimes that end up being splashed all over TV. Those are the ones that you know, the women, the white women, the woman,

Danie 37:22
actually Yes, that's a great point. Thank you for correcting me there. And actually, that was something also that I was reading about why this particular genre can be really problematic. Because when we use pretty white women, or violence against pretty white women, as a plot device, whether it's a true story or fictional story, what ends up happening as it gets, it's it does a couple things is it creates this entertainment value, while completely ignoring like real laws that could be changed. To make these situations less prevalent, it also ignores the large demographic of people who are victims of the crime. Like you were saying, like trans people, native or Indigenous women, young black men, yep, etc, etc. Like those people don't really ever end up on the news. Those the media is there's no attention there. Yes. So in a way, there's also a privilege that the easiest way to get your story story in the media is to be a pretty white woman. But also then there has to have violence committed against you. And it also perpetrates this idea that women are weak and vulnerable and that men are dominant and violent. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Carrie 38:46
Yeah, definitely not quite the case. Right. Yeah, I also think that the I know, we don't want to, like glorify the killers or anything like Like that, but I do think that the psychology of the killer is super interesting as a as a woman trying to kind of understand why someone would do this to someone. And I think it takes away a lot of the fear and like the power that they might have in your imagination when you you realize really, a lot of them just had terrible childhoods or, you know, physical traumas that happened to them. Yeah. And it kind of, there's like that, that view in the media of a murderer like a serial killer who's like one step ahead of the cops at all times. And like, just super smart and crafty. And, you know, like, that's what movies are about, like Seven you know, movies like that.

Danie 39:51
I've never seen it.

Carrie 39:51
And that is absolutely Oh, well don't awful but you know, to me like it's the killer. who's like, leaving clues? And the cops aren't quite catching up like cuz he's just a genius. And that's absolutely just not how it ever is. Almost never

Danie 40:11
Yeah. That seems to be like the most rare scenario I would

Carrie 40:16
Definitely. Yeah. And that, you know, realizing that kind of helps. It's like it's just like a real it's like some guy who's, you know, mad because he didn't have a date in high school, you know, like that kind of thing. Right? Like Elliott Rogers or whatever.

Danie 40:33
Right. Or someone who suffered a lot of, you know, like you're saying, trauma or abuse. Yeah.

Carrie 40:40
Yeah. So I think that's part of it too. Sure.

Nicole 40:46
Yeah. I know, that's definitely a lot of it for me too. Because growing up like I was always the outsider. I was a homeschool. I mean, I haven't mentioned it in a while. I have to mention it. But so then when I finally like went into school, I was always the outcast or I was always the one that like, I would talk to people that other people wouldn't talk to because they had years of saying like, He's weird or whatever. But I would walk up to them and be like, he's talking to me, so I'm going to talk to him. Yeah, I would always like what fascinates me is I would be friend a lot of these people and I would just kind of be not not scared. But like, I'd want to I'd want to understand what they're going through and what's happening with them because they were you know, something they had kind of hard lives. So yeah, just have the what makes people just go a different way and handle things. You know, true, you know, crime really It just fascinates me.

Carrie 42:03
Yeah, as as empathetic people. I think that's part of it too. It's really fascinating. Yeah, just to kind of understand where some of that came from

Danie 42:13
yeah, definitely. And it's interesting how people can go through similar traumatic experiences and then respond so differently, right? Yeah, child abuse is unfortunately really prevalent. For some people, it seems to, obviously take this terrible toll on them where then they perpetrate violence against other people. And then some people are like, responding totally the opposite way where they're like, this was such a terrible experience. I'm going to be the best parent ever. And so then they like it's, it's just wild to me how like, the spectrum is of how people respond to traumatic events.

Carrie 43:00
Yeah, I definitely agree. And no matter what um, like an anomaly is interesting to people, no matter what you're looking at, you know, some sort of aberration or interesting thing that doesn't normally happen and that's what basically a murderer or serial killer is. It's it's an anomaly. So just at its basest level. It's like, that's interesting, you know?

Nicole 43:25
Yeah. Yeah.

Carrie 43:29
Does it feel a little do you guys feel a little weird about it? Sometimes though, does it feel like exploitative, do you feel kind of bad about liking it? Ever?

Danie 43:38
Yeah, yeah. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, just this week about truth, the true crime genre, and it was a really good conversation. It's a very good friend of mine. And she gave me permission to quote her, it's a it's a long quote, but I really liked what she said. If you don't mind if I read it,

Carrie 43:59

Danie 44:00
Okay, so she said, People become quite obsessed with certain kinds of crimes and certain people who commit such crimes, what gets lost in the fascination of the human mind is the victim. I feel many people who are into this sort of entertainment and I'm throwing in a blanket statement here concerning the awful kind of horror movies with torture etc. under this too, do not have any experience with someone that care about being murdered or tortured. There are exceptions, of course, and I've heard some people say that it has helped them, but that data is skewed as those who cannot bring themselves to watch it are not reporting data. I feel like we as a society have an obsession with people that we can look at and go well I'm not like them. We like train wrecks. We like safe train wrecks that happen to other people. It's pure showing it schaudenfreude you know, what I'm saying You can get our thrills from horrors that literally kill people after mass shootings, we see posts all over saying don't make them famous don't post their name and picture. And yet people can rattle off the names of famous serial killers. Not their victims, though, just the killers, because our morbid curiosity means we want to make them famous anyhow.

Carrie 45:14
Yeah, yeah.

Danie 45:19
Yeah, I feel like that is the perfect way of saying what my emotional conflict is with it.

Carrie 45:28
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely true for me.

Nicole 45:32
Yep. Agreed. That's crazy.

Danie 45:36
Okay, yeah, Adam. It's exposure therapy. That's the word I couldn't think of. Thank you. Yes, exposure therapy. Thank you, Adam.

Nicole 45:50
Awesome. Well, all right. Um, I feel like there's a lot here and we could probably talk about it more and more, but I think we should wrap this up. Before we do let's just do a quick what true crime podcast are you into really, really fast ready Danie go

Danie 46:09
and that's why we drink.

Carrie 46:13
All right, Carrie.

I'm gonna throw out Casefile.

If you want something that's always super respectful to victims and gives you pretty good research and facts, Casefile

Danie 46:26
Nice find out. Okay. Nicole, Nicole.

Nicole 46:29
I probably right now. I think it's I'm not gonna remember the name. I think it's murder squad.

Carrie 46:39
Oh, yeah. That's a good one.

Danie 46:40
Yeah, I haven't heard of that one.

Jensen and Holes

Nicole 46:45
Yeah. They weren't they a part of the whole golden state killer.

Carrie 46:53
Paul Holes got the Golden State killer basically. Right. Yeah. I mean, not single handedly. But he was main player.

Nicole 47:01
Yeah, yeah, and he's gorgeous. So that's fun.

Carrie 47:04
He is pretty cute.

Nicole 47:06
Anyway, all right.

Danie 47:07
Well, we should link to these podcasts in the show notes.

Nicole 47:10
Yeah. And we will also maybe should we post about it too on our social and patreon?

Danie 47:21
Yeah, definitely.

Nicole 47:22
Let's do it. Alright, so you can find us at Facebook slash, Women AF podcast Instagram, Women AF podcast, Twitter, Women AF podcast, Patreon. What is it? patreon.com slash Women AF podcast is that what it is?

Carrie 47:41
Sounds good.

Nicole 47:43
There you go. Oh boy, I'm not good at this.

Carrie 47:48
This is the hardest part.

Nicole 47:52
Guys, well, stay healthy out there stay sanitized and we are Women AF and we know you are too

Unknown Speaker 48:12
Women AF is produced by mortar box media and engineered by Adam Rostad. intro and outro music is Sq z by Shane ivers, check them out at Silverman sound.com and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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