Episode 5: Be Boss

This week we compare the ways in which we do (or do not) struggle to conjure the confidence needed to be a leader -- at work, in our side hustles, or any time we need to feel more empowered. We give some tips that work for each of us personally (sneak peek: never underestimate the power of a little eyeliner).

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Show Notes and Resources:

How do YOU bring out the badass boss in you? (Come on, Carrie needs all the help she can get). Write into womenafpodcast@gmail.com or connect with us on social media on Instagram @WomenAFpodcast or Facebook at www.facebook.com/womenafpodcast

Shop for our #BeBoss and Fierce Female Apparel in our Women AF Podcast Merch Store


Scientific Study on women wearing makeup: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0025656

NYT write up of the makeup study: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/fashion/makeup-makes-women-appear-more-competent-study.html

Gender Pay Gap Articles: https://www.bustle.com/p/the-gender-pay-gap-will-close-in-another-257-years-a-report-says-19497700


Women AF is produced by Mortar Box Media and Engineered by Adam Rostad. 

Intro and Outro Music is SQZ by Shane Ivers. Check him out at silvermansound.com


Transcript for Episode 5: Be Boss:

It's important for us to include a transcript for every episode. While we review the transcript to major errors, there may be grammatical errors. Please don't judge. :-) 

Women AF 0:00
This is a mortar box media podcast for more podcasts and to learn how we can help you create your own visit mortarboxmedia.com

Danie 0:17
Welcome to Women AF a podcast hosted by three friends who have bonded over entrepreneurship, potty training gone wrong and dreams of dismantling the patriarchy. Oh... and murder podcasts. Duh. I am your host Danie and today I'm joined by Carrie.

Carrie 0:36

Danie 0:36
And Nicole

Nicole 0:38
That's me!

Danie 0:38
And speaking of murder podcast. One quick story that I wanted to tell you guys was I finally listened to My Favorite Murder.

Nicole 0:48
You did?

Danie 0:48

Carrie 0:49
Wait, You never listened before?

Danie 0:50
I had never heard it before. And

Nicole 0:52
That's how Carrie and I bonded.

Carrie 0:53

Danie 0:54
Right. And then I came in with And That's Why We Drink which is, my favorite podcast ever. Of all time except for this one of course. Yeah, this is our first anyway, so I finally listened and I was so excited to tell you but I couldn't tell you

Carrie 1:06
yet where where did you start at the beginning or in the middle?

Danie 1:10
Whatever the most recent episode was, Hey, I don't know.

Oh, so,

Nicole 1:15
but good. Was it good? Did you like it?

Danie 1:17
Yeah, I mean, they started with a joke about blowjobs and then they talked about murder, so I felt like it was a win-win. My comfort place.

Nicole 1:27
yeah. Oh, yeah, that's definitely fun.

Carrie 1:29
Good. Are you gonna keep listening?

Danie 1:31
Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, I follow them on Instagram, with our Instagram page.

Nicole 1:37

Danie 1:37
By the way I did.

Carrie 1:39
That was in smart

Danie 1:40
I know, which is also a very casual intro to our social media pages.

Nicole 1:46
Good Job.

Danie 1:47
Thank you. So you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Women AF podcast. And we also have a Patreon account and since you know, our producer wants to get paid. We would love the support and we also have a lot of really fun freebie stuff for you there behind the scenes stuff. If you listen to our last episode, Nicole's on the hook to design a free to-do list downloadable

Nicole 2:14
I can do it.

Danie 2:15
You know we have, you can ask us questions and we'll do a live video on there answering your questions, you can vote on topics, etc. It's patreon.com/womenafpodcast. So yeah, Nicole, I heard you had a story for us.

Nicole 2:30
Okay, so here's the thing. I have a story, but I'm gonna sound okay. I'm gonna sound like a sheltered little homeschool girl cuz this is crazy. But, um, so I recently went to go get my oil change at Walmart because my friend is the manager of like, the Auto Care Center

Danie 2:49
I didn't even know Walmart did oil changes.

Nicole 2:51
Yeah, apparently they do. So I'm not super a Walmart person. Especially in our area, the couple Walmarts that are in like our areas are kind of a little sketch.

Carrie 3:02
Yeah, no. No, Not good.

Nicole 3:04
Yeah, yeah. Which is fine, whatever. But I'm so I'm coming out of Walmart and I am trying to beeline it really fast to my car because I'm already I mean I listened to murder podcast so I know what happens when you're outside in the wild of the parking lots and the wild so I'm trying to like beeline it to my car and I see this gentleman and he's wearing this coat and mind you were in Wisconsin so it's cold I think this day it was 13 degrees like it's really cold. So I understand that he's bundled up and hunched over and you know it's dark out. So I am trying to be a good person and trying to think in my head like all right, well, if this was a murder situation, what do I have to do to prevent this? So I get my phone out. I'm like not making eye contact. I'm just like kind of Running, and he has this like stocking hat on. He's got his hood up. He's got this giant big coat on and he's getting a little sketchy. He's getting a little close to me. And I start like kind of fast walking as fast as I can in to car as he's coming because he's coming the opposite way. And I saw him kind of look around my car. And then he's like, walking really fast towards me. And I'm like, this is how I die in the Walmart parking lot. I die there.

Carrie 4:27
That is scary

Danie 4:28
Yeah, I'm on pins and needles right now.

Nicole 4:30
Yeah, so I started walking to my car and then I'm doing this thing where I'm like, looking at my phone and everything and he yells really loudly because now he's like, maybe a couple paces behind me. And he goes, What do I look that scary?

Danie 4:48
Fuck You dude.

Nicole 4:49
And I'm like, Uh, No, and I just start like, running. I'm like, I can't! No! Running to my car and I get in my car. I'm like, was I am I that shows That like, apparently this guy intimidated me, when I'm in Wisconsin, and I'm in a Walmart parking lot like, this shouldn't be something that I'm intimidated by it, but I think

Danie 5:11
I think that you're 100% in the right.

Carrie 5:14
Yeah, I think that the way they responded was great. I think almost every woman would have responded that way

Danie 5:21
right? back that you feel guilty about it speaks a lot to how we're as women supposed to be like appeasing people. If someone makes you uncomfortable, regardless if you know, it's just the way you feel, it's the way you feel. And so fuck them.

Nicole 5:36
True. True. Yeah, I do agree with that. I recently went to New York for a business trip. And that was like a culture shock. Because I walk in. Well, I don't walk in the New York... but like I just open the door to New York, but I go into New York and I'm like, wow, this is totally different. And once I left there, I'm like, all right, like I felt a little bit more confident. Little More like I could take on New York in the daytime. And like I felt totally derailed because then I go into a Walmart parking lot. And I get intimidated by this guy in a jacket.

Danie 6:12
I don't... No, I don't think that you feel bad about that. That was a smart reaction

Carrie 6:17
Yeah, smart to be aware and that guy was an asshole.

Danie 6:20
Yeah, for his response. And you don't know what he was doing? Like he wasn't really trying not not trying to make you feel comfortable, right.

Nicole 6:27
And he looked in my car. That's what was weird about it,

Danie 6:30
Wait, he looked in your car?

Nicole 6:30
Yeah, I noticed him near my car. Yeah, like how the parking lot was situated. It was like, my car was the last in the row. And so he was walking from the back end of the parking lot and he had to like turn close to my car and come in. And so he like, looked as he's turning near my car. He's like, looking in my car.

Danie 6:52
Sounds like he was up to something, right.

Nicole 6:54
Yeah, that was my vibe.

Carrie 6:56
And he looked in the car before he yelled the thing?

Nicole 6:58
Yeah, before because I was already opening up the door and I saw this figure, like turning the corner by my car and looking in my car but then like kept walking I went and that's why I was like - Oh, this is happening.

Carrie 7:10
I would have been real creeped out.

Danie 7:10
Yeah, I am creeped out for you. Like I have I'm literally have goosebumps. I'm serious. I mean, just because someone's from Wisconsin does not mean they're not a murderer, because If you know anything about Wisconsin history we have some pretty prolific serial killers in our past.

Nicole 7:28
Yeah, this is true. So all right. Well, I feel better about it. Thank you guys. I appreciate it.

Danie 7:32
Definitely not something you should feel embarrassed about. Hmm. Do you have any creepy people stalker stories?

Carrie 7:42
Luckily, not this week.

Danie 7:44
Oh, that's good.

Carrie 7:45
Yeah, no, I do have kind of a a mom fail that I thought would be

Nicole 7:50
Oh, I love my fail.

Carrie 7:51
Yeah. It's not a huge one. But okay. I really had to stop and think on this one. Because I don't know at the beginning of the week, I said something to my son about being six. I was like, oh, when you're six, and he said something like, I'm seven. And I was like, Oh gosh, you're right. I forgot your age you're seven. And then a couple days later, I was just, you know, in the shower and thinking things as you do. And I was like, he's totally six. I really had to stop and think. And I was minutes worth of thinking and me being like, Okay, what year was he born? I literally forgot my son's age. I didn't know if it was six or seven. The next day at work, someone asked me my kids ages and I was like, I had to think about it all over again. I was like, my son is six? Six? Six. Yeah. So I was really unimpressed with myself. I could not figure it out. I mean, I feel like it's hard.

Danie 8:54
Yeah, I've done that. Me too. I do that with my own age.

Carrie 8:56
Oh, I do it with my age. That's different. higher number. Much, much higher.

Danie 9:03
Well, I just had to fill out some daycare paperwork.

Carrie 9:06

Danie 9:07
And I have to check their birth dates like four times to make sure I put the right date.

Nicole 9:12
I forget the years a lot. Yeah. Like what year was she born? I'm not really sure.

Danie 9:17
Oh, I forget the day too

Nicole 9:19
Yeah, yeah.

Carrie 9:21
Okay. All right.

Danie 9:22
I'll get confused with like the due dates and like the actual date and there's so many dates. That's why I need everything in my calendar. I need my calendar to tell me when people's birthdays are

Carrie 9:37
You need the Cozi app.

Danie 9:39
Hey, Cozi if you're listening. We would love for you to be our sponsor!

Carrie 9:45
Alright, so great. Now I feel better about my week.

Danie 9:47
Yeah. That's not a fail.

Nicole 9:49
Yeah. Oh, heck no, that's not a fail.

Carrie 9:51
Thank you. Nicole. You felt better after your story.

Nicole 9:54
Yeah, I do!

Carrie 9:55
Yeah, you got anything we can do to make you feel better, Danie?

Danie 9:58
I finally listened toMy favorite murder.

Carrie 10:01
Oh yeah.

Danie 10:01
And so I feel better about that because I've been putting it off for a long time.

Carrie 10:04
I feel better about you now too.

Danie 10:07
Well see it was it was my secret shame that I'd never listened to it.

Nicole 10:13
Yeah. I get it.

Danie 10:14
As much as you all talk about it.

Nicole 10:16
Yeah. Well, that's how Carrie and I bonded.

Carrie 10:18
Yeah. That's very true.

Nicole 10:19
We had a meeting and we were like we were talking about I don't know random podcasts and I was like I listened to a murder podcast and you're like I do too!

Carrie 10:28
Of course! You're a murderino!

Danie 10:31
It's actually funny because um, you know, Daniel was making fun of me because so I am very empathetic and I cannot watch really graphic gory scenes on TV. Fake or like a horror movie, whatever. Yeah. And, but I really love murder podcasts. And I really love like, dateline style documentaries about murder.

Nicole 10:55

Carrie 10:56
And what's the difference then? What do you think is the difference. I'm with you, I agree with you.

Danie 11:00
They're not as visually graphic. Like, it's usually am like the murder well, so I guess when I'm, when I'm listening, I can censor what my mind sees. Yeah, if I see something on the TV or movie screen or whatever, I can't censor that out, you know, and then that's much more real. Yeah. Um, and the nice thing about a lot of these podcasts. Is that not that they are like making light of the topic, but they tend to be funny people talking about a serious topic. So I feel like that adds a little bit of levity to it. And they usually have some type of takeaway, right? You know, I don't know. I feel like I become more educated on creepy people in the parking lot. Who like, yeah, yeah, you know, could be a murderer. Yeah. In the Walmart parking lot.

Nicole 11:49
Yeah, that's true. What I also like about it too, is I feel more empowered when I listened to especially a lot of the women podcast that talk about, you know, these murders stuff. I love that because I feel heard... if that makes

Danie 12:05
You feel heard about murder?

Nicole 12:06
No, I like, I like how they talk about murder, but then also they talk about like, like they made me feel better about for instance, the situation that happened at Walmart parking lot. I feel better about not

Carrie 12:19
you're validated

Nicole 12:20
Yeah. Like I am I my instincts are. Yes, correct yet like I can feel that way and because these things happen and yeah, it's scary and I don't know it's nice.

Danie 12:33
Well, speaking of feeling powerful and heard and validated, that kind of leads nicely into our topic of the day, which is about being boss and being a leader as a woman. But before we get into that topic, we're going to take a quick break.

Women AF 12:55
Hi, it's Adam from Mortar Box Media. I also engineer the podcast you're listening to right now, I want to tell you a little bit about our business. Mortar Box Media provides services for you to help create recordings that engage the audience you're looking for. We have the tools, the know how, and the expertise to provide you with not only quality recordings, but help you with providing quality content. We can help you with every step of the process from choosing a name to getting your show out to the masses. We can also provide services for single session recordings as well. So whether you want a one time family history recorded or an ongoing show, find us online at facebook.com/mortarboxmedia. While you're at it, check out our whiskey podcast called chill filtered and our storytelling podcast called Madison story slam.

Danie 13:48
And we're back. That's my radio voice - and we're back. So the topic of the day is about being boss and What it what we do to kind of set ourselves up to be leaders or bosses or whether that's a boss at work or at home or just like in day to day activities kind of like what do we do to kind of I don't know tap into our Sasha Fierce as it were. And so this is an interesting topic for me because all - I'm - I am kind of like a steamroller. Which if anyone has worked with me, which actually both of you have. I tend to be like, Oh, this is what we need to do. Okay, let's do that. We're gonna do this and like and you do that and you do that and I've always been like that. And you know, as a kid, when you're a little girl like that. You are called... anybody?

Carrie 14:54

Danie 14:54
Yeah. That's what you're calledcalled. So all growing up. I was bossy. The bossy one. Even. And so it's funny because my parents are very, like, I never felt like I couldn't do something because I was a girl or a woman. Like they were very much just like, if you want to do it, just do it. And so that's why when my dad and I were having this conversation once, it really like threw me for a loop because he was like, so. So who wears the pants? And, and you seem very I can't think of the word he was he used it was it just it was such a? He seemed you seem like you're the one who's always like, in charge isn't the word to use, but that's what it meant. And I was just thinking, like, What a weird thing to say. Like, yeah, but this is not a boss employee type of relationship.

Nicole 15:47

Danie 15:47
And like, I don't know, I feel like Daniels and my relationship is very healthy in that. It, you know, we're partners where, you know, no one person is like in charge. Yeah, as you know. And so as, as someone who has been labeled bossy my entire life and now that I have my own side hustles and am the boss of those side hustles is just I wanted to hear about what are your experiences as women in taking on leadership, whether it's leadership by title or leading a project or you know, I know you both have side hustles that you obviously you know, you have to take lead on. Yeah. So what does that mean to you?

Nicole 16:35
I guess so for me. Today actually at my job and my full time job, I art directed a photoshoot and what that means is like you boss people around a lot, where like you boss, the photographer around, you boss the models around, you work with the stylist, you try and try and basically get the shots you need. And it's funny. So I'm I mean We talked about this I love sleep, and I value sleep like no tomorrow, but I will I will rather sleep five extra minutes and not put on makeup, then put on makeup and be tired for those five minutes. So, for me what I do when I go into these big situations and whenever I art direct a photoshoot or whenever I'm going to a big meeting that I need people to take me seriously, I put on makeup, and I'm talking like I don't really put on a ton of makeup but I put on eyeliner, I put on my eyebrows, which means like I pencil them in but um, and then I put on mascara, but I feel like even those little little things change - like you can tell people are actually paying attention to you or actually validating that like oh, yeah, you you look smart. Okay, cool. Let's let's do what you say and I'm not going to get mad at you or whatever, which in itself is kind of crappy that it has to take makeup in order for someone to listen to me like that's sucks. You know what I mean?

Carrie 18:11
Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense, honestly. What about that makes people take you more seriously?

Nicole 18:19
Well, yeah, I think for me, I have such a baby face that I look like I'm two.

Carrie 18:24
and you're short

Nicole 18:25
and I'm short yeah, so anything I can do like I make sure I wear heels. I make sure I wear like makeup just so that people can notice me. Otherwise I feel like people are like, yeah, yeah, Nicole, it's fine. Just, shhh, you're fine. You'd be 12 over there in the corner. And, like, I feel like no one. Like I've literally had meetings where I, someone asks for opinions. I say my opinion and they're like, Okay, cool. And then somebody else says their opinion. It's my opinion, but they're just saying it again. And they're like, That's brilliant.

Carrie 19:01
That's definitely happened to me. I don't know what that is about me that what am I putting out that people aren't really listening to me?

Nicole 19:09
Yeah, yeah.

Danie 19:11
What - the person who usually follows that up with their opinion, are they a man or a woman?

Nicole 19:17
Typically, it's a man.

Carrie 19:20
Yeah, I want to say it's a man.

Nicole 19:21
With a beard. Typically it's a bearded man.

Carrie 19:23
Yeah. Yeah.

Danie 19:24
You're getting specific! It's actually funny that you talk about makeup. There was a study done and I would have to look it up. It's It's been a while since I read it. But the study basically said that there is certain levels of perceived beauty. And you know, when a woman is perceived as not beautiful, she is not taken as seriously at work, when she is perceived beautiful and wears just enough makeup she has taken more seriously but if she wears too much makeup, yeah, she's in the same category as someone who is not perceived beautiful.

Carrie 20:01
Yeah, I believe that

Nicole 20:02
yeah I totally believe that

Danie 20:04
it's and it's that seems like a lot of pressure

Nicole 20:08
just enough right too much right not too little

Carrie 20:11
right but I but I do have to say though when I when I take the time to do my makeup a little extra nice and like get my hair all lovely and put on some decent clothes, not just like leggings a big sweatshirt Yeah, I feel much more powerful.

Nicole 20:30
Yeah. Yeah like your confidence you exude more confident. Yeah. And so I that's my two like, I don't know if they're reading my confidence level or my makeup like I'm not really sure which one

Danie 20:44
and then if you feel more powerful. Yeah, you're gonna, you know, kind of display command. Yeah, right. Yeah, put it out there.

Nicole 20:52
Yeah, and, and in general, my leadership style is like I will lead I'm hundred percent willing to jump on it and do whatever I need to do If no one else wants to do it, like, I will let somebody else do it because that's fine. But if no one's doing it, I will jump in and be like, I got this. But so that might just be my personality style and where the confidence comes in. You know what I mean?

Carrie 21:18
Yeah, you just have some natural confidence, it sounds like.

Nicole 21:21
I do when it's needed.

Danie 21:26
Yeah, but you can pull it out when you need to have but, yeah, not necessarily something that you really think about.

Nicole 21:33
Yeah, yeah. It's not something that's an everyday occurrence. Like when I need to pull it out. I'm like, Yeah, I will boss this model around the fine.

Danie 21:40
Do you want to be more of a boss on the regular?

Nicole 21:46
I don't know. I mean, I don't really feel a need to. Like I would like to be more assertive and like taken more seriously. But it's not a necessity for me to like, I don't know, control everything. Do you know what I mean?

Danie 22:06
Yeah, yeah, I totally get that.

Nicole 22:08
What about you?

Danie 22:09
Well, I just always want to be the boss. Like, I actually have the issue where I need to rein myself in to give people the space to be the boss. Yeah, especially now that I have people. So now I have people on my team that report to me. And so this is the first time outside of my own stuff that I've been in a corporate job where I have, you know, people on my team and I am their boss, which is honestly it even feels weird to say that where I have a manager position, and so I've always been of the mind. And so I've had great managers and I've had terrible managers and the best managers. Well the the one at my previous company is one of my favorite managers ever. And one of her styles was really like, I want to empower you to lead. And so that's what I want to do for my team. And so I want them to feel confident enough to like, take these projects and run with them and lead with them. And I can step in and help if needed. But like, you know, I think a good manager or good boss is like, I want to empower you that when I leave, which you know, will eventually happen, right? No matter where anybody work, then like you're going to retire, move to another job or whatever, yeah, that that person would be able to step in, and maybe do a better job than me, you know, as the manager, whatever. So, for me, I have to rein myself back to not be in charge. Yeah. Because I just naturally just, I want to be in charge, and I want to be the CEO. whatever I'm doing, and, you know, that's not always fair to the people I'm working with. Be like, everyone, I got this. Don't worry about it. It's fine.

Carrie 24:05
You don't seem bossy to be like, yeah, you're making it sound like you take over everything. And you're definitely not. You're not like that.

Nicole 24:12
Yeah, I agree.

Danie 24:13
Oh, thank you. I mean, I think the way I approach it is less like, I've got this everyone just I don't I don't feel like I'm very patronizing about it. But I think that most people are like you where they will step up if needed, but they won't necessarily raise their hand. I would say that's, that's probably the vast majority of people. And so in like a leadership position, where I'm trying to get people to raise their hand more like I have to, like, make a space for them to think that they need to do that so that they do it. Do you know what I mean? Because if even if I say, hey, you You're in charge, then I feel like I'm just bossing them into it. You know, so it's like, I want them to kind of take the onus and be like, yeah, I want to do this. I want to lead this thing. And so it's kind of this hard balance.

Nicole 25:07
Yeah. What about you Carrie?

Carrie 25:09
Guys, I'm not like either one of you. I...

Nicole 25:12
that's good.

Carrie 25:14
I'm never gonna raise my hand. If no one else wants to do it I also don't want to do it.

Nicole 25:23
that's not true. We've been working on projects before and like it's come down to no one else in the table wants to do it and like you and I have to figure it out.

Danie 25:31
Also, you have your own side hustle. So yeah, you definitely raised your hand with that.

Carrie 25:37
Yeah, I guess but I've historically had a big lack of self confidence in anything I do. Or I second guess everything I do or say I don't want I can't put myself out there very easily. I feel like I'm going to mess it up. No matter what it is. I'm probably gonna mess it up.

Nicole 25:58
Yeah. Do you do anything that like helps you like for me it's makeup. Do you have anything that you when you know you have to go into a situation where like, I gotta bring in some of that confidence. Do you do anything?

Carrie 26:10
definitely do yeah, I'll try to make myself look a little more. Yeah profesh... Yeah, no I don't

Nicole 26:20
Do you have a song like a jam that you listen to? Like your pump up - Pump It Up kind of jam.

Carrie 26:26
I mean I feel like you both probably should know that the Moana sound track really makes me feel pretty powerful. I will blast that in the car if I'm on my way to like a meeting or something. And be like YEAH!

Danie 26:38
I mean the bio that you wrote for yourself Is that your Alter Ego is this metal chick?

Carrie 26:46
Yeah, that very confident,

Danie 26:48
confident and bad ass.

Carrie 26:49
Like, I couldn't kick anyone's ass.

Danie 26:51
So how do you tap into that person?

Nicole 26:57
Do you feel like that when you workout?

Carrie 27:00
Usually, yeah, usually I feel pretty confident kind of depends on the day but

Danie 27:05
yeah, I've heard you tell some people off

Carrie 27:10
When? When?

Danie 27:12
Our old personal trainer

Carrie 27:15
Oh, that guy.

Danie 27:18
And I definitely think you tapped into that metal chick.

Carrie 27:22
Well, you know, I think no matter what, even if I don't always, don't ever have any self confidence, I also want to stand. I've always wanted to stand up for myself. So when it comes down to it, I will stand up for myself. Yeah, because otherwise I would just regret it forever.

Danie 27:40
Okay, so you feel confident standing up for yourself?

Carrie 27:43

Danie 27:44
So you feel confident having your own side hustle?

Carrie 27:47
Yeah, I feel confident, because I know how to do that work. Okay, I'm good at that.

Danie 27:51
So you feel confident about the work that you do?

Carrie 27:54
Yeah, for the most part. I mean,

Danie 27:56
All of that sound pretty like leadership?

Nicole 28:03

Carrie 28:05
I just feel like I'm the opposite of that word.

Danie 28:08
You feel like you're more of a follower?

Carrie 28:10

Danie 28:11
And you prefer to be a follower.

Carrie 28:13
Yes. That's much easier for me to be comfortable.

Danie 28:16
Yeah, that's fair.

Carrie 28:17
Yeah. I mean, in my job I, I'm like backseat. I'm like the one behind the curtains, you know? And that's where I want to be.

Danie 28:27
Unless you're in a mosh pit.

Carrie 28:31
Yeah, actually. Yeah. My husband, he will tell you that the one place I will convey some confidence is at a concert, where people are getting in my way of enjoying it. That's that is the place where I will absolutely tell people off and I've done it so many times. And he's always like, Oh my god, here she goes again. But yeah, there it is. There it is. That's the metal check coming out a little bit.

Danie 28:58
So give me a situation where you've been at work and you feel like you haven't been heard, and you had to stand up for yourself.

Nicole 29:06
That's a good one.

Danie 29:07
And I know all of us have a story, just because we are three women in a corporate environment. So all right, how'd that happen?

Carrie 29:17
yeah, definitely has happened where I feel like another in a higher position. Male. I wasn't really work, the way he changed what I was doing. It wasn't working well for me. And so I explained my situation and said, this process just, it's really hard for me, it doesn't work with the type of work that I'm doing and just completely dismissed.

Danie 29:49
And how did you react? What happened?

Carrie 29:53
I actually I said, Okay, if we can't change this, then I can only give you this much. I can only go this far with the work I'm doing for you. I'm I have to push the rest of this aside because I can't do it this way.

Nicole 30:07
Like you set boundaries kind of thing.

Carrie 30:09
So I guess I, you know, I kind of I guess I stood up for myself.

Nicole 30:12
Yeah, that's great!

Carrie 30:14
Alright okay. All right okay

Danie 30:19
You got a fist pump from Adam! How about you Nicole? You got a story?

Nicole 30:24
Um, I do. I mean, there's so many... so at my add a couple jobs go, I felt like I was in a position where we lost our boss, like we had a change in management. And so we were kind of bossless for a long time and I stepped up because no one else wanted to and I was like I I'm going to make sure this keeps running because I was the kind of senior person in the group and I was like, You know what? I can do this. So for about four months, I kind of stepped it up and I was like, You know what? I'm going to do what needs to get done. And then after the four months, I started talking to upper management. I was like, hey, I've been doing all this stuff already. Like, is there any way like, what can we do to get me in this position? Because I feel like I'm I'm there. But now what do I gotta do?

Carrie 31:29

Nicole 31:29
And they told me that they don't think I can be a good leader.

Danie 31:33
Whoa, yeah.

Nicole 31:35
And I was like, okay, that's that's cool.

Carrie 31:37
Even though you've been doing it.

Nicole 31:38
Even though I've been a leader, but you know what, fine. Sure. I have a lot to learn. I get that. Like, I'm still younger. And I've never had a true. I feel like right now I do, but I've never had a true like a boss that I've learned from. Thankfully right now I do but I'm pretty previously at this current position, I never had a boss that I could really look up to. So I never really had a good example.

Carrie 32:06
Too bad.

Danie 32:07
Yeah, that's hard

Nicole 32:08
Yeah, it was so fun. So I got a new job. I was like, Alright, cool, peace out.

Carrie 32:15
That's another way of standing up for yourself

Danie 32:17
It really is, removing yourself from a bad situation is sometimes the only thing you can do. Yeah. Like at my last job I was doing I was the marketing coordinator. And I was also the sales admin coordinator. I was doing two full time jobs badly because you can't do two full time jobs in one week. And so I had been trying to talk to management like we need to hire a sales admin like this needs to be a separate position. And so for several months, I started recording everything I was working on, and how much time it would take and everything I wasn't able to get to, and what that kind of loss of that task not being done. Like what that was costing us, by not not have been able to get to those things. So eventually they decided to hire somebody. And so she was the, I think her title was sales admin coordinator. And she's amazing. And I trained her and you know, she, she did a great job and she like, really, like took that position by the horns and like, she and I became very good friends. We shared an office like she's one of like, my closest friends now, which has led to many wine fueld conversations outside of work. And at that job ended up like, burning in like a heap. That honestly, that whole conversation could be its own podcast episode, but after I was no longer working there, her and I were having a conversation and I found out she was hired for $20,000 more than what I was making.

Carrie 34:00
Oh, that's fun. Yes.

Danie 34:03
And I mean, nothing against her.

Carrie 34:05
No, of course,

Danie 34:06
You know, she deserves it. But it did make me realize how underpaid I was considering I had been doing both jobs. Yeah. And so when I then was applying to get my current job, and the opportunity came up, I was like, I can't let that happen again. Yeah, because I know that they - as unfair as this is and I have very strong feelings about how unfair This is. If you don't ask for it. They're not going to give it to you. And so I went in as I'm, as my now boss, who's great. was asking me like, what do I want to make? I had to suck down that terror I was feeling of asking for this money, and I threw a number out that seems so outrageous to me and.. He gave it to me. He didn't even negotiate. And I was like... Oh, I should have asked for more!

Like, okay, and then when the opportunity like, and then I, I also knew I wanted to be a manager. And so what I started to do was every time I would have a one on one with him, I would say, you know, I'm really interested in, you know, one day getting into a management position. Can you tell me what I need to start working on? Yeah, or some variation of that. It was not like, promote me, but it was very much like, what could I be working on now to get where I'm trying to go? Right. Yeah. I also feel like I kept planting that seed over and over and over and over again. Yeah. So then the opportunity ended up coming where actually right after I got back from maternity leave, like two months later, he's like, Hey, I'm gonna promote you. Which was great. Yeah. But I mean, from my last job, which was just a shit show, and like, I learned a lot of rough lessons about what I didn't ask for. And so then, coming into this job, I'm just like, All right, I'm just gonna, like, suck it up. And as terrifying as it is, I'm just gonna ask, because what's the worst that's gonna happen? Right? Right, right. Is that they will say no, you can't have that. Yeah,

Nicole 36:21
well, yeah, yeah. Or Yeah, but, I mean, even if he says, No, there's still that building platform of like, Okay, well, what, that's my goal. What can I do? Right get there? I think that's great. That's awesome.

Danie 36:34
And I think salary for women, especially as a hard conversation.

Nicole 36:38
Oh my gosh, yeah.

Carrie 36:40
terrifying. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, cuz I just kind of went through this relatively recently and it's just so uncomfortable.

Danie 36:54
And why do you think it's uncomfortable?

Carrie 36:59
Because you don't want to ask for something and then they're like, and then they laugh in your face and say, right, yeah, yeah... You're the biggest Loser I've ever seen. Why would we pay you that?

Danie 37:10
Right? Which it makes sense because they're offering you a job so I can see why they would say that to you.

Carrie 37:16
Yeah, no.

Danie 37:17
Up until you asked us, we just now decided that you're a loser. But, before that you are great. But now now our minds are made up.

Carrie 37:25
You giant loser get out of here.

Nicole 37:27
I mean, to be fair, I have heard of companies where, like, the minute you so let's say you're trying to negotiate a new job, the minute you like, come back and say, actually, can I do like let's negotiate and can I do this other number? Even if the minute you start negotiating, they shut it down. They're like, I'm done. I've heard I've heard of

Danie 37:50
Oh, that's not a company I want to work for. No.

Carrie 37:53
Oh, interesting.

Nicole 37:54
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like it just it just,

Carrie 37:58
you just don't know what's going to happen. You're throwing yourself out there. You have no idea. Yeah, yeah. I don't like situations like that at all.

Danie 38:06
Yeah. And I would also I would imagine it's probably based on the manager or the boss or whoever is doing that conversation possibly. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's situations where they have like, corporate wide we have this policy. Yeah. But I would imagine if it's a policy, it would be stated in the offer. Yeah, like we are hiring X amount, and it's not up for negotiation. I've also heard that when you're being interviewed, and somebody asks, what your current salary is, you are not supposed to answer.

Nicole 38:38
Yeah, I've heard of that, too. You're never supposed to answer them, right?

Danie 38:42
You can say something like,

Nicole 38:45
I am negotiable. I always say that.

Danie 38:47
Or, or you could even say, you know, I'm I'm under an NDA, and I cannot disclose my salary, but the range I'm looking for is x to x. Yeah, you know, because they always ask me I feel like they'll always lowball what they would have offered

Carrie 39:04
This last time, like I, I obviously knew the question was going to come. And I started doing some research and trying to figure out my best way to answer it. And what I did was I turned it back around and I said, Can I just ask what you have budgeted for the position?

Danie 39:20
Ooh, that's good.

Carrie 39:20
And it worked really well, because I got heard I got her to spill it. And I kind of work with that. And yeah, it worked really

Danie 39:28
well, like, well, I'm at the top of that number.

Carrie 39:33
Yeah, yeah. And it worked. I mean, it worked out. Yeah. Whatever you can find out first, you know,

Danie 39:39
right. Now, and I also think as women we are taught, all growing up that our job is to make a conversation more comfortable. Yeah. Knowing that this conversation is uncomfortable. We try to do what we can to make the other person feel better

Nicole 39:54
Yes, yeah. sacrificing our own comfort for someone else's.

Danie 39:59
You Yeah, and like, lowering our own value. Yeah. Because essentially, that's not to say that a person's value is based on their salary. But like, you know, you're paying me for the work that I'm doing. Yeah. And so I think my work is worth X amount, you know, and so, you there should be some wiggle room. Right. Right. Um, but then when they come back and say, yeah, we don't want to pay that. Yeah. Or Yeah, you know, and like half. And then of course, I was reading a very disturbing article this morning. That based on the current projections, the gender pay gap, if things continue to go as they are, will not be closed until the year 2227.

Carrie 40:55
Oh, What?

Nicole 40:56
Oh no. You know that's just around the corner...

Danie 40:58
Yeah, I'll see that. Ant that's worldwide that's not just U.S., And of course women of women of color and there's like, an even more larger wage gap, of course to take into consideration So, but that's like 207 years,

Nicole 41:18
Did you just do that math in your head?

Danie 41:20
I mean, it's almost 2020 so the math itself wasn't too terribly.

Nicole 41:24
You know what? It's late.

Carrie 41:25
Math is hard!

Nicole 41:27
I don't know what's happening.

Carrie 41:29
Yeah, no, that's crazy,

Danie 41:30
Yes. It's just ridiculous.

Carrie 41:33
What is this world?

Danie 41:34
What is this world? So yeah, so so your what's your number one tip to if you know, you got to be a badass that day.

Nicole 41:44
Um, I would probably say... Okay. So, especially if you are like going into a work type scenario, I would say like They hired you. And they believe in you. Like it took that much to say, like, I want you for this position that you need to go into there thinking like, I can own this. And that's how I kind of go into whenever I have to our director photoshoot I'm like, I my boss picked me and my boss trusted me to do this photo shoot. So I'm going to do this photo shoot like a no doubt about it, I can do this. Like it's all kind of a mental state for me. But then again, when I would as I played soccer in high school, and my best games was when I was angry. And so my coach, kind of a jerk of a coach, but I loved him and he would make my brother who was three years older, but still in high school with me, make him pick on me whenever we had game days, so that I would get mad so that when I entered the field, I'd already be pissed off because of whatever my brother did. And then I would like tear up the field. So it's to me it's All like a super mental game. So yeah, what about you, Carrie, what's what's your tip?

Carrie 43:06
Well, I have learned that if I'm feeling completely unconfident... I just need to stop and think back, How many times have I ever fucked this up in the past? Usually, I don't, I don't, I feel like I'm going to mess everything up. But when it comes down to it, I haven't messed things up. So I need to have a little more confidence in myself know that I've done all this before I can manage. I've always come through successfully and just just gotta jump in and be brave.

Danie 43:42
Yeah. It's actually funny because the way I am confident is the exact opposite of how you are in the sense that I know I will probably fuck something up and it's okay. Especially like the first couple times I do it. I think that I don't have the expectation that it Going to go well, just that we're going to do it, we're going to try it out. We're going to see what works, what doesn't work, and then we'll fix the things that don't work. Yeah, I guess I look at everything almost as like, it's just part of the process failing is just part of the process to get it done. And so I think it makes me feel confident, because like, I have definitely been in meetings where I'm like, I don't know how this is gonna go. But we're going to try it and we'll see what happens.

Carrie 44:24
It's a very healthy way to go about it. And I could stand to do a little more. Yeah, I like that. I will also say that, just getting older helps a lot too. I'm still pretty... I don't know what's going on around me half the time, but I'm better than I was, say 20 years ago. And that's one thing that it does get better with, do get a little more confident and sure of yourself.

Danie 44:53
That's true, and maybe just you care less about what other people think about it.

Carrie 44:58
That's definitely part of it, too.

Danie 45:00
Yeah, yeah, cuz you're not so stressed about Oh, what are these people thinking about me right now? You're just like, I just got to get in here and do what I gotta do. Yeah, and it's fine.

Nicole 45:09
Yeah, get her done.

Danie 45:12
And like wearing something confident can also boost your confidence. Definitely. Which brings me to our #beboss shirt in our merch store. So womenafpodcast.com we actually have a T shirt. It's one of my favorite t shirts. It's #beboss. And I love it. I actually really liked were working out to it makes me feel confident about dominating these burpees - which I don't dominate. I just have to be clear, I do not dominate the burpees. Actually I was in a workout this last week and I did the so there's two workout classes back to back. The first is like an advanced strength class which is my favorite because I love weights and then the second one is like a cardio class called circuit. And we had just finished up the advanced strength and I'm like, I'm feeling really good today I'm gonna stay for the second workout. And the instructor says, Okay, so we're going to start by do 25 burpees and I was like bye!

But maybe if I was wearing my #beboss T shirt or...

Nicole 46:25
or the fierce female shirt!

Danie 46:30

Carrie 46:31
You listeners can have these shirts, you can just hit up our Patreon.

Danie 46:38
No, our website!

I mean, you can hit up our Patreon too. But our website, womenafpodcast.com

Carrie 46:43
This is why you do the social stuff.

Nicole 46:45
We do our best. Yeah, you know what, that's all we can do.

Danie 46:54
That's right. We can only do our best.

Nicole 46:56
and then give no fucks.

Danie 46:57
That's right. do our best and give no Fucks. I love that. So much!

Carrie 47:01
Make it a t-shirt!

Nicole 47:03
All right, I'll make it a wallpaper too for people on our patreon.

Danie 47:06
So do your best and give no fucks.

Carrie 47:09
That's so nice!

Danie 47:09
Well, we hope you got something out of it and if anything, you got that statement right there and we got a new t-shirt idea. So we are Women AF and we hope you are too.

Carrie 47:29
Women AF is produced by Mortar Box Media and engineered by Adam Rostad. Intro and outro music is SQZ by Shane Ivers. Check them out at Silvermansound.com and don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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